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I have a miss fire on cylinders 2,4 and 6. only when the…

Customer Question
I have a miss...

I have a miss fire on cylinders 2,4 and 6. only when the engine is warm. I am getting codes p0300, 302, 304 306

Mechanic's Assistant: Just to clarify, what's the exact code? And have you tried to reset it?

P0300 p0302 p0304 p0306 and yes I have reset it and the same codes come back. This is a severe miss at 6 mph but never when its cold

Mechanic's Assistant: What is the model/year of your Toyota?

Its a 2004 with a 4.0 liter. Acording to all the books IO have read this engine did not come in my truck but it did and has vvt,i

Mechanic's Assistant: Are you fixing your vehicle yourself? What have you tried so far?

I verefied it has nothing to do with spark. the plugs are fine and the misss is not electrically related. My best guess is it has something wrong with the vvt system on the left bank. I have seen that these have a filter for this system but cannot find it

Mechanic's Assistant: Anything else you want the mechanic to know before I connect you?

Where did they hide the filter for the left side vvt selinoid?

Submitted: 3 months ago.Category: Toyota
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Answered in 49 minutes by:
4/2/2018
Toyota Mechanic: david craig, Auto Mechanic replied 3 months ago
david craig
david craig, Auto Mechanic
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 5,797
Experience: owner/mechanic at 3D Automotive
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Hi my name is ***** ***** I'll be more than happy to assist you. Please allow me a few minutes to review your information. Thank you

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Toyota Mechanic: david craig, Auto Mechanic replied 3 months ago

what model, please?

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
Toyota Tacoma. 2004 with a 4.0 vvt-i It miss fires real bad at 65 / 70 mph. It never miss fires when its cold and running in open loop. As soon as it warms up and the temp gauge reads just below where its normal operating temp, the miss fires begin. If I floor it it clears up fine but if I try to hold a speed of say 60 MPH it runs like crap. It has all new plugs gaped correctly. The previous owner wasnt too good about changing the oil. I have cleared the codes and the same ones come back.
Customer reply replied 3 months ago
The codes I pulled this evening and they were p0300, p0302, p0304, p0306. and p0020 In my opinion I have either a advance mechanism on the timing gear its self that doesnt function or a filter that protects the solenoid is plugged. I have removed the solenoid and it was free of any obstructions and worked fine with 12 volts applied to the terminals. My manual says nothing about any filter in the oil system but I have seen on U tube where some guy claims all toyotas equipped with VVT-i have these inline filters under what looks like a bolt from a banjo fitting. I have yet to locate any such filter on my engine. Any help here would be appreciated. I have owned this truck 4 years now and it has always ran perfect until a week ago. I change my oil regularly but have reason to believe the previous owner did not.
Toyota Mechanic: david craig, Auto Mechanic replied 3 months ago

check our valve clearances

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
Um. no. the problem was not gradual. It started like some one took a hammer and beat holes in my intake manifold type of miss. This is my second tacoma. My last one I installed a turbo and ran it with 14 lbs boost for 5 years. I am well aware what the effects of loose valve clearances and this is absolutely not caused by valve clearance issues. I thought you were suppose to be a techincian? The last code I pulled was P0020. Thats a camshaft position A circuit bank 2. That is not a code loose valve clearances will create. Try again.
Toyota Mechanic: david craig, Auto Mechanic replied 3 months ago

I said to check the clearances. good day.

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I have literally hundreds of lash caps of every thickness and the tools for replacing them with out removing the cams. Setting lash on 3.4's and 4.0's is something I can just about do in my sleep. This is not a valve lash problem. you are telling that to the wrong person. I will perform a leak down test to prove or disprove the valve lash setting. If you are indicating the the lash has reduced with wear or the valves sank into the heads. That too is improbable. I would have noticed the gradual drop in gas mileage. I write down my mileage every time I fill up. No reduction of mileage has been noticed in the entire time I have owned this truck. Valves that remain open will also cause backfires and or burnt valves. It ran too good the day before for that diagnosis and it runs perfect when cold which pretty much rules out leaking valves. Then there is the fact I can predict the minute the miss fire will begin with the temperature gauge.. It must be in closed loop for the engine to miss fire. Again. Not to kick a dead horse but it is as unlikely as can be that this is a too tight valve lash problem. I know exactally what those are like. Turbo's have a way of accelerating exhaust valve seat wear. I have been down that road too many times to even argue about it. It does not consume oil either. Try again.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago
Skyvisions
Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 14,990
Experience: Toyota Master Diagnostic
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New expert here. Do you still want assistance?

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
Well this has allready cost me $20.00 for useless information, Why would I want to spend an additional $26 dollars? I have little confidence in the wisdom of these technicians to solve my problem. I am an automotive machinist and work on cars daily. I have been doing this for 30+ years. I was going to use All Data but hat required me to sign up for a subscription. Because I see no further use beyond this repair, The all data route didnt seem like one that the cost justified the return. I found you guys and after some worthless advise then requesting I spend an additional $26.00 so I can speak to an incompetant tech in person. Why would I want to do that ? Seriously, Would you if you were in my shoes? That said back to my truck. I did a leak down test and the combustion chambers are in great condition. 98% retention ranks my 4.0 up there with brand new vehicles. As I figured originally . The valve adjustment was not the cause. I disconnected both cam phasing solenoids and drove the car to see if the cam phasing was the cause. I know the advance mechanism defaults to the full retard position and locks it there until the engine is warm and begins to activate the VVT system. There was no difference in how the engine performed. The cam phasing is not the cause. The solenoids are plugged back in. The 4.0 engine has two cam sensors, one for each bank. How reliant is the spark timing per bank on these cam sensors? Would there be any point in throwing a new cam sensor in the left hand side head? All of the miss fires are coming from the left bank. Cylnders #2,4 and 6. Having no idea what the flow chart of the pcm's ignition logic. I would have no way to determine if this could help or would be a waste of time.. I have two spare 4,0 engines in my shop to use as organ doners for test parts. If you have any honest technicians working for you, Could you at least answer this simple cam sensor question for me?
Customer reply replied 3 months ago
You all ready claimed that my satisfaction was guaranteed. That did not occur. I will not give you more money based on the first guarantee you have yet to honor..I am sorry but typing will be fine. I am literate enough to understand the technicians reply if one is sent.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

First of all I can understand your frustration. Just remember not all experts are created equal. I don't want to get into my credentials though I've been doing this for 35 years of Toyota and Lexus and I've never been beat. I don't live in my mother's basement I'm not in my pajamas copying pasting information from YouTube or Google searches, and work a full-time job and have done this for a long time. Electronics and diagnostics are my specialty. I have tackled some unbelievably difficult situations and resolved them without somebody holding my hand. That being said before we continue simply review my credentials here online then look at some of the 14,000 customers I've solved problems for and are totally satisfied with my diagnostic abilities and problem solving skills. I have no control over the automated offers that are sent to you. You've only made a deposit to your account nothing has been withdrawn because you have not accepted anybody's answers at this point and frankly I probably wouldn't either if I was you. The previous information you were given I will not comment on because I'm not here to judge or cast aspersions on any other expert. I'm only accountable to myself and my ability to solve your problem. That being said we can continue if you choose to. I need more information. There are discrepancies given the year and the codes that you listed. I need to do some research up using your vehicle identification number. Do You have the ability to use an oscilloscope preferably a four channel to compare the cam sensors to the crank sensor and correlation timing and the general health i.e. output time and frequency of the wave patterns of the cam sensors and crank sensor? How many miles are on the vehicle? Do you have the vehicle identification number available? Do you know the service history of the engine i.e. consistent and regular oil changes? When you getting the even number cylinder misfire's do they always set with the P0020 code or have you gotten them without that particular code? Do the codes return within one or two drive cycles? Does your scan to allow you to active test? If I'm asking questions that have been previously posted please disregard that and continue to answer them. I do not read or try not to read other experts input to you or questions to you so that my information doesn't become biased or distracted from my methodology. Keep in mind there are a lot of times when I'm busy in the shop I can't just run to the computer and get back to you right away however I will give you the upmost professional consideration.

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Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

Also I need to know how much information you already know or have as far as detailed facts as to why these particular codes set especially the P0020 code? I don't want to regurgitate a bunch of stuff you've already read about the logic on how these codes come up.

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Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

Also we will need to scope test both duty control valve solenoids.

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
You are the first person who actually sounds like you have some diagnostic skill beyond reading a flow chart. The code P0020 only came up the last time I pulled codes. I tracked it down to the VVT control solenoid not being plugged in properly on the left bank or cylinders 2,4 and 6. Since then I wanted to prove for my self if the VVT system had anything to do with the miss fire. I am aware this in not conclusive but, I disconnected both solenoids with the understanding that when the engine is turned off the intake cams go to the default position of full retard. This is the position when its fired up cold and I wanted to see if I could reproduce this when warm. The engine has always ran flawless when it was cold in open loop. My findings were it made no difference what so ever. The same type and intensity miss fire occurred. This is when the vehicle is held at a steady speed. Under hard acceleration it smooths out and runs clean on all six cylinders. As soon as the velocity is allowed to plateau at a given speed, the miss fire returns. I plugged both solenoids back in and this time made sure they were plugged in correctly. The P0020 code was entirely my mistake and should be disregarded. This was the last thing I did on my way home from work. I will get you the numbers you requested ASAP. I do know how to use an O scope but do not have access to one for my personal use.. A shop near where I work has one as well as some other diagnostic equipment. I consider this as a last resort due to their very high hourly rates of $140/hr diagnostic fees. I can typically sort problems like this out in a day or two on my own with my mitchel manuals or All Data. My mitchels are too old to be of use and I had to decide to choose you or pay for a subscription to all data.. . The VIN 5TEJU62N35Z005270 The title says its an 05. The tag on the door jamb says 10/04. The mileage now is 241,704. When the truck was given to me it had just rolled over the 200K mark. The person who gave it to me, purchased it new and drove it on the highway only. When it was given to me it still had the original factory brake pads with 75% remaining. I would have never believed this if I did not know the person very well and know it was factual. He typically changed the oil every 7/9000 miles with pure synthetic oil. I use the same type oil but change the oil every 6K. The truck has given the same gas mileage since it was given to me at just over 32 mpg. I went through my mileage records I fill in every fill up and this has varied by 3 mpg in the 4 years I have owned the truck. That number dropped like a stone when this problem began. My commute to work is entirely highway miles. I literally work one block from the off ramp. I never abuse the vehicle and with the exception of one front wheel bearing, I have never had to buy anything but brakes, oil and fuel. My last questions are, how are the two separate cam position sensors connected to the ignition system per bank? Or maybe Does the left cam sensor control the timing of the ignition on the left bank? Would a failure of this sensor have an effect on the spark on the cylinders on the same bank? I have two Toyota 4.0's in my shop to be rebuilt I can pull parts off of. Would replacing the cam sensor be a test you would recommend? These engines ran fine but burned oil due to abuse and neglect.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

I reviewed the information this morning have a busy day today I will review everything and get back to you with more information. Short-term information provided as follows. According to the vehicle identification number this is a 2005 and the production date 10 of 04 also makes it in 05. They did not use VVTI in 2004 it didn't start until 2005. Your vehicle identification number revealed there are 2 open recalls one for safety recall on the rear leaf springs they need to be replaced. The other one is a pedal modification on the accelerator pedal and possible software update. I will get back to you later today. In the meantime other than the 0020 code that you accidentally set were there any other variable valve timing codes ever set?

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I was so exhausted from work I wrote to you, ate dinner showered and went to bed. I will clear all codes before leaving to work and let you know what the new codes are when i return this after noon. I will be able to reply around 5:00pm west coast time. The pattern has been P0300,P0302, P0304, P0308, P0430 These were the codes the six or seven times before the one time it kicked out a single P0020. The sequence they were listed changed and some times they listed the P0302 more than once. But these 5 were the codes it always produced and are the ones I expect to see later today. Any thoughts on the relationship between the ignition in cylinders 2,4 and 6 and the left side cam sensor? My biggest concern is it only ever seems to miss on those three cylinders Had the miss been a random miss of all cylinders, I might have been willing to run with the first diagnosis. My leak down testing proved these 3 cylinders were in just as good as the other 3 and any difference in leak down was less than 2%. The operation with both of the VVT solenoids unplugged provided no change what so ever. I will be pulling a cam sensor from one of the 4.0's at work and testing my theory at noon break. I have never believed in the school of thought of throwing random parts at a problem until it goes away or I go broke. I prefer that the parts I throw at any problem are the right ones. I have seen too many techs use this method too many times. With no reply from you of the relevance the cam sensor plays with the ignition. That is what I am reduced to. This is in no way an insult, I just must continue to move forward trying to solve this. with or with out help from others. You have yet to reply to any of my questions so far so? Failure to answer any questions makes our conversation rather one sided. If you only provide suggestions that no normal person can perform, I have to question your interest in solving the problem with the tools available to people who come here for information. You seem to be focused on recalls more than solutions. Curious. If the cams return to full retard position and are locked there when the engine is running in open loop. Having them unplugged and running the engine with them locked it this position makes testing them with a scope questionable if when the cams are locked in one position and the same miss exists. In theory the cams are not advancing at all when the control solenoids are unplugged. If I am right, how could the advancers be playing a role in a one bank miss fire when they are locked and nonfunctional? If the miss exists when they are nonfunctional, how will scoping the solenoids performance solve the problem? When the engine is cold, it runs flawless. I am finding it tough to follow the logic that lets the engine run good when the VVT system is dormant and the cams are locked in one position yet locking them in the same position when warm does not cure the miss fire. Common sense would say that cam position was not playing a roll in the miss fire. That might point to a sensor failure or a pcm issue causing the spark timing to become random on that one bank since the other is not effected at all Logic would point to the use of two cam sensors and their relationship to the spark timing on their cylinder bank. Is there some line of code in the PCM that lets the engine run on one cam sensor when in open loop? With this in mind, is the failure of using a scope to test a part that logic says is unlikely reason to claim I failed to follow your instructions and therefore you can wash your hands of me and refuse the guarantee? I have to look at this from the point of view that I am continuously asked to call a tech for an additional 26 dollars yet none of my questions get answered. I know the idea is to make money but where is the default in failure to be able to do this with out giving back any money?.Asking for a pointless test no average person could perform as a convenient out and never actually answering questions adds weight to this. For a solution to be reveled the conversation must go both ways. I answered your questions and you have answered none of mine. Why? I asked no fewer than 6 related questions about my trucks problem. If you are not going to answer these questions I will conclude solving the problem is not your goal. getting rid of me with the failure for me to use a scope that none of the people who write in to this answer line are likely to own to test a part that appears could not contribute to the miss as reason to deny your guarantee. Thats what this looks like from my end. Comments?
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

WOW!! That was a lot of information. The reason why I have not answered any your questions is because I don't like to speculate on what could possibly be going on. It would be the same as if the mechanics through parts at a car to fix because he didn't know how to diagnose it. if I speculate on what could be going on without proper input or information it will be doing the same thing but only mentally doing it instead of physically throwing parts at the car. However if you would like me to speculate here we go. This is not likely a camshaft position sensor problem. I have no control over the automated phone call request all I can tell you is to just ignore them. I have been doing a lot of research on the VVTI system because this is an older system and even when the system was first introduced Toyota never really gives us full logic on how the system works. They give you a bunch of bull shit flow charts and you have to figure it out from there. My gut feeling is this is not a sensor issue but I would like to see what the waveforms look like on an oscilloscope before I make that determination. If that is not possible we will have to pursue this another way. If the cam position sensor or crankshaft position sensor were not working correctly. You would have multiple codes set for the sensor specifically and for timing correlation. Does your scan tool will allow you to view live data for example the fuel trim numbers long and short and the air fuel ratio sensors for bank one and bank two? If I'm reading your statements from previous replies you're telling me that on hard acceleration the problem is not there and when the engine is cold it is not there. Also when you disconnected the solenoid in theory you are correct there should be no actuation of the actuators. That alone should rule out that it is not an actuator or OCV issue. The fact that it does not do it on hard acceleration leads me to believe the system is possibly running lean on those three cylinders. You ask yourself how can that happen and not affect the other three cylinders typically that happens either due to intake manifold gasket leak or possibly a large vacuum hose for example the brake booster leading to that portion of the manifold that draws those three cylinders lean. My logic behind that is on hard acceleration you won't have vacuum in the system it strictly is wide open at cruise however when you back off the throttle the system will go into a larger vacuum and could falsely draw air into vacuum leaks that are not monitored or metered by the air flow meter. You understand the theory there? If you have a scan tool that monitors the live data this would show up on the air fuel ratio sensor voltages and the long and short fuel trim percentage numbers they would go on the plus side percentage wise. To answer some your concerns about being in ignition issue that's highly unlikely. Never seen it happen and the logic or mapping in the computer would never be out there in public Toyota would never publish that. The camshaft position sensor is primarily used for VVT I control the crank sensor is the primary focus for for the ignition identification and cylinder misfire purposes. Again I would like to see what that wave form from the crank sensor looks like. It could still be producing signal but possibly be erratic and screwing up the logic in the computer for the ignition firing sequence. I have seen issues with corrosion and crankshaft position sensors. That would be my next line of inquiry and inspections. It is not a VVT I oil filter or filter screen issue or clogging. Based on what you're telling for the history of the vehicle that would be extremely unlikely using. That it coil and well-maintained vehicle.

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Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

My next train of thought after the issues that I just discussed is the fact that you have the P0430 code. That codes means the catalyst efficiency for the catalytic converter for bank two has failed. Usually when that happens it's very possible the catalyst has degraded and collapsed. When that happens it will cause back pressure on exhaust manifold and will cause cylinder 2, 4 and six misfire. My second gut feeling is that you have a restricted catalytic converter in that bank causing excessive exhaust pressure back on the even cylinders. The only way to check that is to pull the oxygen sensor before the catalytic converter put a pressure gauge in there you should have less than three quarters of a pound psi. Would put a damper and at theory is that typically on hard acceleration the problem would get worse not better. But I've seen all kinds of where things happen so that wouldn't surprise me if that's not a fast hard rule.

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I tore the intake off and removed the valve cover and I agree with your statement The VVt has little or nothing to do with the miss. I have no actual values for the two cam sensors nor do I have resistance values for the solinoids. I have other ones to test side by side with mine and resistance wise they all read identical. I have no idea weather or not that means much because the manual I have gives none of this information but just tells how to remove these parts and replace them In all reality the chiltons manusls are not worth the paper they are printed on. The valve clearance has been confirmed to be well with in tolerance. The timing chains seem to have no slack nor is there any looseness of any of the chain guides or idler sprockets. I have found hall effect sensors that failed had no continuity between the terminals. The ones I tested had continuity between some of the terminals and were all with in 1% of each other. I have no other method of testing these parts so with that in mind These all pass. Or are at the least have failed in the exact same way. both the ones from my vehicle and the two parts donors I used as assumed good parts for comparison. I reassembled and cleared codes and need to go to work. I will let you know what new codes if any it makes today. So you feel the cat may have melted and collapsed in on its self? Is there an O2 sensor up stream I can pull to see if this allows the exhaust to escape to see if this will let the engine run better? I would unplug the sensor to prevent it from throwing the air fuel ratio way off. Just a thought. A melted cat is a realistic possible source of the problem. The symptoms fit the theory and I just need to find a way to let the exhaust escape with out throwing everything off. I am going to start by backing off the bolts off that hold the down pipe to the exhaust manifold and see if that provides the relif that bank needs to breath. Got to run. will be late as it is.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

Yes based on the description that you have the two areas that I would focus on our intake leaks creating a long fuel trim scenario on both long and short fuel trims this would tell you that you're running to lean at cruise and the misfire occurs. You need an active testing scan tool that does live data in order to monitor that. Bank one and bank two should run very similar. Anything more than plus or -5% is not good. It takes a total of about 40% plus or minus when you add the two together to set a code. Click the link I've attached that is the left manifold the large highlighted yellow area is the catalyst is honeycomb inside this large container. Ideally if you had a borescope you could remove the air fuel ratio sensor highlighted by the red and yellow highlighted area and go down in and look at the catalyst. There's no way to test this short of pulling the manifold and the converter assembly. and that would be way loud and exhaust heat and gas pushing directly out of the head onto the surrounding areas. As you live in California emissions are very strict out there if you have a 430 code already is not going to pass emissions at that point you're going to need to replace the manifold/converter assembly because it won't pass the E check or emissions check. If it's collapsed you'll know when you take it off and replace it. If for no other reason so that you can get the 430 code to go away. Try and steer clear of aftermarket converters there cheap for a reason. Taking the pipe off the end of the converter will not do any good it's after the converter. I use an old air fuel ratio sensor and drill a hole out of the middle then welded piece of 3/8 copper tubing on it and made a port so that I can screw it into the air fuel ratio sensor spot and put a pressure gauge on it. Typically no more than one psi at cruise and 1/2 to 3/4 of a pound of pressure is normal. You can also go to any auto parts store I know O'Reillys sells them they are non-fouler adapters is an 18 mm x 1.25 thread pitch you can screw that in and weld a piece of copper tubing to that also they sell them in 2 packs for about $10. You need to focus on these two areas and not worry as much about the clearance and VVT I issues I don't believe that anything to do with your problem. Based on what you're telling me. Again unless you have an oscilloscope to physically look at the patterns there's no way to know if any of the speed reels got damaged throwing and erratic signal. They could ohm test fine but it would be extremely unlikely that anything happened to the speed rings or speed wheels. Frankly given the mileage that you have am surprised the timing chain is not stretched and you do not have timing correlation codes. This engine early on was notorious for chains stretching and they don't make it much past 150,000 miles I've even replaced chains that are stretched setting timing correlation codes as low as 70,000 miles. It is a major job to do.

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I agree with every point you made. I was a little dissapointed this morning when I discovered the the tube stainless steel exhaust manifold is one piece with the first cat. These are one piece from the engines cylinder head to the flange between the first and second cat. I loosened the O2 sensor so excessive back pressure has some where to escape. I wanted to keep the sensor in the exhaust stream. When I got to work I noticed the stiff insulation had threaded the O2 sensor beck in tight enough to make my findings pointless. So on the return trip I removed the O2 sensor entirely(something I really didnt want to do) and unplugged it so it would not think it was running lean as a pop corn fart. Other than sounding like w ww1 fighter aircraft, with a miss fire, nothing changed. I plan gutting an old O2 sensor I have in my diagnostic tool drawer and welding a 1/2 pipe female threaded fitting to the hollowed out part so I will have a manifold to build off of for testing.. This will allow me to make a manifold to hold my good O2 sensor and a hose nipple fitting into the O2 bung and using some silicon vacuum hose put a pressure gauge in the cab to measure the back pressure while driving. I must let the truck cool first. What is an acceptable back pressure for a 4.0.blowing through two healthy cats? Before I will say the cats are healthy and move on, I want to be damn sure they are not heat damaged and even partially closed off. What would you say would be a good cut off point as far as back pressure, what would you call too much? I will write again once I have more information to work with.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

I am on East Coast time so there is a three hour difference. There shouldn't be any back pressure but typically every one I have ever tested that was good was under .75 psi. No more than one psi is acceptable. The fact that you have already had a P0430 code tells me that the efficiency of the catalysts has already been degraded. It will never pass emissions testing like that. Running a borescope down in the sensor hole and looking at the top the catalysts is a quick easy way to see if it's deteriorated as far as collapsing at least on the first converter.. Removing the sensor and driving it with no sensor is not enough if that catalyst is starting to collapse to alleviate the back pressure. I would also want to see what the vacuum is doing you might want to run a vacuum gauge and put that on the dashboard also. At cruise you should have about 20 inches a vacuum plus or -1. On hard acceleration it should drop down near zero then shoot right back up instantly on deceleration. If there is a lag or the vacuum does not snap back very fast that is also a sign of restricted exhaust. 21 inches a vacuum would be ideal.

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Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

You didn't mention it but I'm assuming the cylinder misfire's are still two, four and six with no other codes? Again it only seems to do it on steady cruise not on acceleration or sitting at idle?

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I have a three gas analyzer that will show if I have a functional set of cats. My only problem is I have no way to isolate one side from the other. I am thinking about drilling two small holes just down stream of the second cats in both l and r sides so if for nothing else I can see if you have hit upon a serious issue and which side is or is not working correctlly. We have to pass clean air testing here too so I must have this truck running clean again. I like to be able to breathe so I have no problem with complying with these common sense laws. I just got done eating dinner and have not finished the project I described earlier. I made the O2 sensor manifold and even found a weld in O2 sensor bung and incorporated it into the log manifold. This will let me get a real world pressure test with the o2 sensor exposed to the exhaust flow even if it is some what shrouded. I have to thread it in and hook up the pressure gauge.I will let you know what I find.
Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I am sorry , Yes 2,4 and 6 are the problem children still. No,2 seems to be the most common one for creating code P0302. Every time I pulled codes #2 was there. #4 and #6 are random but seem to take turns with no real pattern.
Customer reply replied 3 months ago
OK I put a gauge on it that had a 1lb resolution and the first hash mark was 5 psi and it didnt move. As best as I could tell the back pressure was below 5 psi. Once back I checked the gauge with a hand pump used to pressurize coolant systems and the gauge began to move at 6 psi so I removed the gauge from the snap on coolant system tester and went for another drive. At wide open throttle I get 3-4 psi back pressure but that only lasts the first few seconds of acceleration then fades to 1-2 psi. I wasnt pushing it to red line. Just a quick acceleration like overtaking another vehicle then coast back down. In my opinion the 3 psi is nothing to be concerned about and with out anything else to compare this to, I would say its normal. That doesn't mean the platinum coating on the catalist is still sufficient to do the job it must perform breaking down the hydrocarbon chain, only that it has not melted and caved in on its self to block the exhaust passage. Your opinion is welcome if you think I should address the fault code as a failed componet before the root issue is solved. I cannot see that causing the miss fire and am willing to move forward.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

In my opinion one or two psi is too much back pressure. I've had multiple cars with about that much pressure cause cylinder misfire and performance issues. And once the converter was replaced the pressure was under one psi and the car ran fine. Just my personal experience. However I would like to see a little bit more accurate gauge is used. You need something that has better lower end reading. That being said if that's not possible to pick up another gauge that has a finer/b morning low end reading as a test you could remove the post catalytic converter sensor. If you're reading is substantially lower that confirms that the back pressure is before the converter. You can also remove the sensors from the other bank and compare what they're doing. Not that that is any guarantee because you still can have slight pressure there if you're having catalyst fail especially with the mileage that you have on this vehicle. Here's the bot***** *****ne you will need to replace this converter if for no other reason because it will not pass the emissions testing because the catalyst conversion process has failed. That is the only way the P0 430 code will set. Oxygen sensors and air fuel ratio sensors will not cause that code to set. It is strictly a bad catalyst. Once you replace the converters/manifold assembly with a good quality unit that will be the only way you'll know with 100% certainty that the cylinder misfire is or is not caused by that. At that time then you can look into the other catalyst or check for pressure issues there once you have the front one off.

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Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

Unfortunately this business you have to make educated choices and decisions based on the data that you have and from my perspective not being there to physically work on the car I can only go by known cases that I've had with similar problems. In my opinion there's a 80 to 90% probability that this is exhaust restriction causing the 246 misfire codes. That is provided you are not getting any variable valve timing codes set and we are assuming that the cam sensors and crank sensor waveforms are normal, not knowing or being able to see them. So assuming that you have ruled out any possible intake leak or air getting in to that side of the intake manifold and bank that is unaccounted for by the mass airflow sensor. Up to and including leakage from the brake booster if you have the vacuum style system.

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I agree with your assessment on my gauge. Somewhere I have some more sensitive gauges. The radiator test kit I had was the only way I could think of in the spur of the moment to check the gauge I chose. I realize neither gauge was designed to be accurate in the pressure level we need and therefore their accuracy in a level below where they were designed to test should be taken with skepticism. Some where I have an old Manometer set that had four water columns and four gauges that measured pressures in inches of water . This was an odd ball carb synchronize set up I purchased as a curiosity years ago at the portland swap meet. I would have to look up the conversion of inches of water head pressure vs. lbs/sq in. I am well aware that inches of water was used as a more accurate measure of vacuum not pressure but these gauges did and coulr read pressure or vacuum either way from the center position of zero.. The gauges measured vacuum and pressure like a turbo boost gauge. I have yet to get a single VVT code or any of the codes that might lead to another source of problem to provide a direction to take this search. If the first cat was not welded to the fabricated exhaust manifold I would not think twice about its removal for a visual inspection. From what I see , even if I were to remove it, A visual inspection with out cutting the manifold off would be impossible. My experience has been that the melting happens from the manifild side and melts down stream. I have seen cases where the cat looked fine from its exit side while being melted shut from the heat source side. This could only be partially true in my exhaust but it is not melted shut. Turbos put more back pressure on an the exhaust then they deliver in boost. You cannot ever get something for free. With that in mind , you think the back pressure is causing a miss fire? I know your task is difficult on many levels due to the fact that you cannot see the vehicle and diagnose the problem sources first hand. I am doing my very best to conduct the testing as accurately as I can with the gear I own. I know this may fall short of what is needed in your opinion. This is understood and I will adjust as best as I can to meet the level of accuracy you requested. How can you make decisions based on testing if it is not performed to the resolution needed to make you feel confident you are getting the numbers needed to make your next direction clear. There is always the possibility that the pressures could be higher than measured due to leakage I have no way to prove I have a perfect seal. I inspected the intake thoroughly when I had it off and found no obvious cracks or dust prints where leaks might have been hiding. I will use a brake clean or other spray fluid to check for leaks with the engine running. There is no audible sounds usually related to vacuum leaks but I am aware they are not always heard. The last codes I pulled wereP0304,P0300 P0302 P0430 P0302 P0430. In that sequence and exactly shown. I must leave now for work. My boss offered to let me borrow a ford pu so I could take this problem to a dealer to sort out. We will see it that works out. I never assume or trust in the kindness of people until it actually happens.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

If your local parts store has a a borescope running a borescope down into the oxygen sensor hole would let you take a look at the substrate. Let me know How goes. Just keep in mind you will not find someone like me at most dealerships. Good luck.

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
Great idea. They have one where I work. I completely forgot it existed until I read what you said. I will have a look on monday. and tell you what I find. Thanks.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

Let me know how it goes.

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I removed the up stream O2 sensor and took a look down stream and could find no signs of melting at all. The element is intact with no signs of blockage what so ever. I tried to get a photo of this but the image didnt turn out well enough to see the small grid like structure. Next possibility?
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

In my experience the pressure that you are getting is too high. Did you compare the back pressure on the other bank with that sensor removed? Did you get anymore pressure testing that's more accurate? Any chance the catalytic converter after or the exhaust before joints the other bank could be restricted? The pressure readings that you had seem too high to me based on what I've seen cause issues. If all that checks okay and the other bank is exactly the same them were back to square one which would be looking at the crankshaft position sensor waveform on the scope and cam sensors on the scope to see if anything looks unusual there or there any deviations that could cause cylinder misfire as far as timing. Then you have to decide whether or not you want to replace that manifold/converter assembly because it won't pass emissions testing due to the 430 code. Or remove the front manifold/converter pipe assembly to see if there's anything going on in that sub converter or resonator in that bank.

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I took my pressure sampling from the O2 sensor hole closest to the manifold. Since any restriction down stream of my sample point, many things are possible. I did not take a sample from the right bank but will soon.Since all stock exhaust systems produce back pressure with each bend and super quiet mufflers, some back pressure was expected. Back pressure is a product of volume. The smaller hole you try to force a gas through, the greater pressure required to accomplish this task. With that in mind, I was not surprised to see pressure at high rpms under load. This was due to a large volume being forced through a stock exhaust. However that does not explain the pressure at normal cruise rpm's and speed. This is a curiocity but I have doubts its related to my problem for two basic reasons. It never misses when the engine is still cold and running in open loop. and at any point no matter how bad its missing, I can floor it then back off as soon as the transmission down shifts and as long as I am accelerating fairly hard the engine runs perfectly. No misses at all.I believe in both cases the computer is in open loop and this is why it runs clean.but only in these two circumstances. I have put turbo's on toyota products with modern ECU's and even with the added back pressure applied, no miss was created. I am aware you are working with the clues given and your responses are the product of these clues when viewed from a technicians perspective. I appreciate your help with this and I will try what ever you ask of me no matter what my opinion is. I will do the tests exactly as requested. You mentioned the crank position sensor as something that should be looked at. How could that sensor have effect on only one cylinder bank with out effecting the other? Many of the ideas I came up with would have effected both banks equally. That is not the case. I got some codes coming home and will pull them as soon as I send this message. Maybe they hold the answer to my mystery.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

Let me know what the codes are if their new. Unfortunately this may be a hands-on type repair. It's difficult to put myself in front of the car behind my keyboard. My only thinking on the crank sensor was seeing what the actual waveform look like in comparison to the number two bank cam sensor. I'm attaching a scope pattern of the one GR known good pattern. Click this link and download the image. This is what they should look like. If the pattern is not consistent or is not in time with the cam sensor most of the time it will set a code but that's not always a guarantee. I've just never seen this particular engine go much more than 150,000 miles and usually a lot less than that before there's timing chain issues. It just one thing I like to rule out then I get into depth with the computer checking pin fits at each pin on the female connector side at the computer that I voltage drop test all the power supplies to the computer and voltage drop test all the grounds from the computer. This is very times consuming and painstaking. There's one easy way to find out if it's a restricted exhaust pull the manifold and go drive it but you live in California you may end up in jail. :-)

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I understand and respect the fact you are trying to do a diagnosis through your key board and In my opinion. Thats a tough thing to do successfully. Kudo's I just hope we can solve this one soon. I don't have much hair left to pull out from my elevated anxiety. Plus my tags are expired and cannot be renewed until I have this thing fixed. Clearly I am motivated.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

If you have to get this past emissions. You will need to replace that bank two manifold/converter because it will not pass with the P0 430 code set for catalyst efficiency. Especially in California. If you're going to take it off and replace the that would be a good time to check the sub cat or any debris on that side. If you know someone with an oscilloscope that can check the waveforms in time and frequency as I have set up on that pattern that you saw that would be good to see.

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Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

I don't remember if I asked this and really busy right now to go back and reread everything we've gone over did you double check the vacuum when the problem is occurring on light cruise is the vacuum holding steady at 20 or 21 inches Orza dropping down around 14 to 15 inches? Also having a live data scan tool to check to see what the fuel trim numbers are doing this should be plus or -5% on both long and short fuel trim.

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Customer reply replied 3 months ago
I have been sick the last 4 days with Bronchitis. I am just beginning to feel human again. I will perform the vacuum test on the way to work today.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 3 months ago

Ok hope you get better :)

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
Thursday of last week I was involved in an industrial accident at work. I was operating a horizontal boring mill and my coveralls got caught in the spindle lock pin. This drug me into the machine and began to wrap my arm around the rotating tool in a fraction of a second. My knee kicked the machine into neutral as it pulled me in. My arm is damaged but should recover. I got out of the hospitle yestyerday. Sorry about my typing. I am on pain killers and typing left handed hunt and peck. I will get back as soon as I can see styraight
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 2 months ago

Wow and I thought I was having a bad day sorry to hear about that. Speedy recovery praying for a complete restoration and healing.

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