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I just replaced the spark plugs on a '06 Sienna, it had a

I just replaced the spark...
I just replaced the spark plugs on a '06 Sienna, it had a coil "C" circuit DTC, and I found a slightly fouls plug that was not a Nippon Denso, so I replaced them all and moved the coil up front so that if it was the culprit, I could easily replace it. But now it starts and immediately dies, and now it sets codes for all the coils, even though it fires when you start it. I acts like the fuel pump is de-activating once you release the starter, cause if you try to push on the accelerator pedal, it does no good. Is there some fail-safe that would cause the pump to be shut down by the ECM?
JA: Most cars have two fuse panels. Which are you looking for -- under the dash or under the hood?
Customer: I am not checking fuses. This car ran before I took it apart, albeit with a misfire.
JA: Are you fixing your Sienna yourself? What have you tried so far?
Customer: What I just described, are you reading what I said?
JA: Anything else you want the mechanic to know before I connect you?
Customer: I used to be a Toyota certified Master Diagnostic Technician in about 2000, so you can talk tech with me and I will understand.
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Answered in 10 hours by:
8/26/2017
Chris (aka-Moose)
Chris (aka-Moose), Auto Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 49,106
Experience: 16 years of experience
Verified

Welcome, I'm Chris (aka Moose).

  • Although I work here everyday, please understand it is not all day and rarely morning time.
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  • Thanks, let's get started.

Good morning. I am sorry we did not get to your question yesterday. I believe I can help on this concern. If help is still needed let me know.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I would like to know what is happening with this job. I work at a small college in Arkansas, and maintain their fleet of vehicles, many of which are Sienna vans from '02 to '15's. I would also mention that I replaced the plastic connectors for the coils on cylinders 2,3,4, & 6, and the thought crossed my mind that I might have got the wiring crossed up in a way that would affect the entire coil circuit, but according to the wiring diagrams I have, everything is in order there.

Have you actually monitored the fuel pressure to see if the pressure is dropping and causing the stall?

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
No I have not, that was was going to be my next step. We do not have a fuel pressure gauge designed for this system, but I could monitor the power to the pump when I get back to this on Monday.

Sounds good, keep in touch

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I hotwired the fuel pump relay today, with the same result. So even with the fuel pump running all the time, it still acts like it is running out of gas. Any ideas based upon what you know?

Can you rig up a pressure gauge to the fuel line to see if there is enough pressure?

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I would have to borrow one. This car ran in before I changed the spark plugs and replaced the plastic housings on the coil connectors on #'s 2,3,4, & 6. At first I noticed the student who put the intake on accidentally pulled the PCV hose off under the intake, and I thought that was the problem, but it made no difference once I corrected that problem. What I am getting at is I am not sure how what I did would affect fuel pressure. I am just at a loss to know what it is, or why it is now setting primary/secondary circuit DTC's for all 6 coils, which it wasn't doing before.

We can start to figure this out but we need to figure out what is wrong and what is not. Since it starts brief it is for sure getting spark.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
Well, I have never seen a Toyota pump go bad, and I highly doubt that one would quit during the time I had this apart. If I can hotwire the pump at the relay, then it is running while it does the same thing (starting and dying right away) as when the fuel pump relay is in place, so it doesn't seem that the PCM is shutting down the pump.

I cannot even make educated guess at this point till we know what is stopping and causing the stall since there are no codes.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
There are codes, one for every coil. P0351, P0352, P0353, P0354, P0355, and P0356. Before I replaced the spark plugs, it was only P0353. I moved the coil from Cyl. #3 to Cyl. #4 in case the coil was setting the code so it would be more accessible. Now they all set codes. Could it be some kind of feedback from a defective coil that is causing this problem? I can try a known good one from another of our Siennas to see if it makes a difference. During the brief time it runs, it still feels like it has a single cylinder misfire as it did before.

Now that I know it is setting all cylinders. Yes one coil can be affecting them all. Do all have the same resistance?

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
Do you know which terminals on the coil to measure for resistance and how much it should be? From what I can see, it is 1 and 3 for the primary winding, but I can't find any definite specs on it.

Here are the steps for testing the coils. https://www.dropbox.com/s/xcl9vz632pu8xek/siennacoil.pdf?dl=0

Now that I have posted a partial or complete answer, you will see you can rate me. The deposit you have already paid is not transferred to me until you rate me. I would like to receive nothing less than 5 star excellent ratings. So if we are not there yet, please reply and let me help more. If you're not pleased, let me know because rating bad does not result in a refund, there are better options. Rating now will not close this post nor prevent replying. Thanks Chris

Chris (aka-Moose)
Chris (aka-Moose), Auto Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 49,106
Experience: 16 years of experience
Verified
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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
Earlier this week, I realized that I had put the wrong spark plugs in this car. I had ordered 3 sets for 3 different vans, and wouldn't you know, I put the plugs for the '07 with the 3.5L in this one with the 3.3L. I thought that maybe this is was causing it to set those codes on all 6 coils, but it still does the same thing.
The 14 page document didn't do much, I was hoping for something about how to test the individual coil with an ohmmeter like you do other coils.
I am next going to try swapping out the suspect coil with a known good one off another van of ours and see if that makes a difference. Any other ideas? This is really getting me down.

I too have run out of ideas other than trying new coils.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
When I was with Toyota, there was a technician's hotline we could call for tough problems. Can you use this to help me out? I am 30+ miles from the nearest dealer, so towing this car is not a viable option for us.

I can only call the hotline with the vehicle in front of me. Car manufacturers do not like this website because we in most cases prevent cars from going to the dealer. I can opt out and let another try to help if you would like.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
If you think that would help, maybe someone else will have an idea what to do here. I tried swapping the 3 front coils from a known good car, and it made no difference. But I put the suspect coil in the known good car and it set a code for coil D, the position I installed it in.

Opting out now to see if another has an idea.

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Michael Solis
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 252
Experience: Lead Tech at Solis Auto Repair
Verified

Hey there! I'm Michael, just got done reading all the details in your question.I feel confident that I can help you. We will get started with some basics, and move forward together.

So, you have access to extra known good ignition coils?

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I do, and I mentioned above, I tried some known good coils on the front 3 cylinders with no change, although when I put the suspect coil in the car that has no coil problems, it set a code although and it also didn't cause a misfire as with the other car, which causes me to suspect another cause for the misfire in the problem car. So I am going to order a coil, since I know this is the cause of the original DTC, but I doubt that this will make the car run again, which is my biggest concern right now.

Well if you know for a fact the front ones have been tried with no change, is it possible to rotate the front to back and back to front and test the rest of the coils? I would first address the coil codes until they no longer appear. One coil can definitely cause all coils to mark.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
The original DTC was only for coil "c", which I figured out was the middle cylinder in the back. When I replaced the spark plugs, I intentionally put that coil in position "d", or middle front so if it was at fault, it would set a different code, and I could easily access it for replacement without having to pull the intake again. I also replaced all the connectors on the coils as they had become hard and brittle so that the retaining part of the connector was broken of on all of them. It was once everything was re-assembled that the engine would not continue running and started setting codes for all 6. And when I replaced that coil along with the others ("a" and "f") with known good coils, it made no difference. The engine will still not keep running, and it still sets all 6 coil codes.
1. Check the freeze frame data to see when the misfire code was stored. Check the fuel trim readings stored in freeze frame.

2. Check to see if the vehicle has had a tune up recently with new spark plugs installed. Make sure the correct NGK spark plugs were installed.

3. Using a scanner monitor the misfire counters at idle and with the engine free-revved at 3000 RPM. Monitor the misfire data on a part throttle cruise while test-driving. Check to see when the vehicle shows any misfires.

4. Check the engine mechanical, including valve adjustment, if the vehicle has misfires at idle. Add supplemental fuel or create a vacuum leak to see if the misfire counts will decrease.Tech Tips:There is a technical service bulletin from Toyota talking about faulty ignition coils causing misfire codes. It is possible that the coils are failing causing all the codes. If the fuel trim readings are going negative when the misfires happen monitor the rear oxygen sensor signa
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you won't be able to do step 3, hope this help somewhat, if not, I will gladly opt out & give another tech a try.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I just installed new ND plugs from the dealer. That is when the engine quit running for more than a few seconds. I cannot get the engine to run long enough to achieve 3000 RPM. I did accidentally install plugs for a 3.5 liter initially, but could that have caused this problem? I have since put the right ones in, and it changed nothing.
Let's back track, please forgive me if you stated this already. Have you checked for spark,pulse and fuel?
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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I hot wired the fuel pump at the relay to see if the pump was being deactivated upon startup for some reason, no change. It fires, so it is getting spark. It only runs for a few seconds and then quits as if it is running out of fuel, but I doubt that is what is happening. This only started happening after I replaced the spark plugs. It ran before, although with a misfire and a code for coil "c".
Ok and the intake air boot is obviously not loose or cracked correct?
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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I haven't looked, but I could look at that. The MAF is giving me a reading, but I don't remember how much it was.

Also with scan tool monitor the rpm data and see if you get any rpm

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Any updates?
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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I haven't gotten back to it yet. I am at a small Christian college, and I teach automotive classes, and maintain all the vehicles for the college as well, so sometimes I have to direct my attention elsewhere. This vehicle has not ran well since I got in here in July, so they are used to being without it for now, but I hope to change that soon. I hope to get back on it today and check those intake hoses and rpm readings.

ok sounds good!

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
OK, today I checked the intake boot between the throttle and the MAF, nothing there, pretty solid. Then I checked for an rpm reading on a scan tool, I have one and the MAF read as high as 7 lbs/M. I noticed today that the more times you try to start it, the less time it will run, or not at all, but if you cycle the key on and off slowly about 6 times, then it runs a whole lot longer before it dies. That got be thinking fuel pump, so I found the blk/red wire that comes out of the left "b" pillar to the pump, and it has power when you start the car and continues to have power until it finally dies. I highly doubt the pump is bad, in 7 years of working at a Toyota dealership, I never saw one go bad. I checked all the fuses in case one had blown for some reason while I had it apart to do the plugs, nothing there either. I have a coil on order to replace the bad one, but when I put a known good one in from another car, it still dies and sets all those codes. It acts as if it is starving for fuel or flooding, not sure which.

Last thing I think it can possibly be is double checking connections on the fuel injectors, other than that, thats all I got with not having the vehicle here, I will opt out to see if someone else can be of more help, I am sorry.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
Haven't you been able to find someone who is willing to take this on? Are there any Master Diagnostic Technicians available?

Yeah it is a bit unusual, maybe its because you have already accepted this answer? Contact support & they will take great care of you.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I have noticed in pulling out the spark plugs (which are new ND's) that they are somewhat blackened, leading me to conclude that either we have too much fuel, or too little spark. Could it be that all the coils are actually bad? I am going to put 2 of the coils in a known good van and see it they set codes in that known good car.
That would be rare, but possible. If 5v ref and spark checks out good, may be something else
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Skyvisions
Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 14,517
Experience: Toyota Master Diagnostic
Verified

Send a phone consult $25 or more through and I will get you up and running. This is not a FUEL PRESSURE ISSUE if the 35# ***** keep setting.

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Customer reply replied 2 months ago
I have no phone service at the shop, do I need to be at the car when on the phone?

Not at this point I'm on my way home from work I can discuss the whole situation via the telephone and you can then refer back to the car when you're standing at the car and run some things. It's just that there's no way for me to get compensated because you've already accepted the answers from previous technicians and this type of problem will take phone conversations not typing back and forth I work a full-time job as a diagnostic destination for Toyota and is difficult to hang out of my computer and type on the keyboard. I will have some time this evening that I can discuss this issue with you but you need to generate the premium service from your and it will allow me to do I will try again to set that up for you just don't accept it from anybody else if you send the offer through and I'm not online somebody else may grab it and you'll be off to another rabbit trail.

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I was able to submit the offer and I will be leaving in about two minutes so unless you send it through I can't get it until I get home this evening in about an hour.

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Sent you a private message.

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Chris (aka-Moose)
Chris (aka-Moose)
Chris (aka-Moose), Auto Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 49,106
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