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95 Toyota Camry: crank..the ignition switch and the wiring harness

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I want to ask follow-up...
I want to ask follow-up questions to RXXXXX XXXXX about a no- crank problem on a 95 Toyota Camry. Based on our discussions the problem was in the ignition switch or the pins associated with the connectors connected to the ignition switch and the wiring harness. However, replacing the old ignition switch with a new one from a Toyota dealer and throughly checking all of these connectors. I have the same no- crank problem, but by removing the 30A fuse AM2 the engine cranked. However, I have not been able to discover why this is true. I disconnected the Igniter and noise filter connectors and the car did not crank. I also disable the fuses protected the fuel circuits except for the voltages feeding the igniters. I have been unable to remove the V-Bank Cover because of the bolts used. Are there other paths from pin 9 of the ignition switch that could cause this no-crank problem.
Submitted: 9 years ago.Category: Toyota
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Answered in 1 hour by:
3/7/2008
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 9 years ago
Skyvisions
Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 14,517
Experience: Toyota Master Diagnostic
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Pin 9 the black/orange wire is the main feed to the ignition coils and goes to the noise filter. It has nothing to do with the starter engagement circuit. Pin 7 black/white wire is the only wire involved in the starter circuit. I am not sure I understand the current situation or remember. So we are clear is the engine cranking over and not starting or just not cranking over. Are you getting power to the neutral safety switch and the starter relay? I am attaching the power flow source chart. The 30 amp ams fuse feeds the ign 7.5 amp fuse. I don't understand why removing the AM2 fuse would allow the engine to crank. One possibility is that the ignition relay is loosing its ground source to engage the starter relay. Test the continuity to ground on the white with black wire or pin 2 of the starter relay.

Download

RXXXXX XXXXX

We are going to need to take this one step at a time. Verify what is going on in the starter circuit. to the relay.

 

Skyvisions
Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 14,517
Experience: Toyota Master Diagnostic
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago
When the AM2 relay is removed, the engine cranks (the start engages and the belts move but these are testing efforts and I am simply trying to determine what is preventing the starter from engaging). Also, by placing the ignition switch in ACC or LOCK we have a connection between pins 3 and 4 and jumpering pins 4 and 7, the starter engages. However, when the ignition is place in the "on" position jumpering pins 4 and 7 does not engage the starter. Based on my troubleshooting, I am assuming there is a low resistance after the AM2 fuse and a good question is if this is true the fuse should blow. The eventual voltage on pin 9 is tapped off of pin 5 of the Starter Relay. I mentioned to you earlier that the voltage at this pin became zero when the ignition switch was turned to the "start" position. I could not check the connector the fuel injectors because I could not remove the V-Bank Cover because of more security bolts.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 9 years ago

Just got in no time to study. First grandson born tonight will get back to you tomorrow on some input.

RXXXXX XXXXX

Skyvisions
Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 14,517
Experience: Toyota Master Diagnostic
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Skyvisions and 87 other Toyota Specialists are ready to help you
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Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 9 years ago

Pin 5 at the starter relay goes to 0 volts when the ignition switch is turned to the start position and everthing else is plugged in???? The nuts on the cover should be about 4 or 5 mm hex or allen wrench nuts. Throw the valley cover away I did on mine. All they are good for is cutting your fingers.

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Customer reply replied 9 years ago
Yes, pin 5 goes to zero and everything is connected. I took the cover off the starter relay and with everything connected used a screwdriver to close the contacts on this relay and the starter engaged. Also, I connected the positive terminal to pin 1 of this relay and again the starter engaged. Someone must have either stripped the bolt heads or installed different bolts.

Congradulations on the birth of your grandchild!!!
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 9 years ago

Thank you it really has not hit me yet but he is a beautiful boy 7lbs. 9oz.

Make sure ever thing is plugged in and the cover is removed from the starter relay. Have someone turn the ignition key to the start position and hold it, do the contacts of the relay close? Get me the voltage readings of the relay pins 1,2,3 and 5 while in the start position. You can take the readings from the relay post with the cover off. We are going to take this one step at a time so we don't lose anything in the translation and kind of start over if you don't mind. Let me know as soon as you get the readings it looks like I am not going any where today because of the blizzard I am stuck in Columbus OH so I will be monitoring all day unless I loose internet service.

RXXXXX XXXXX

Skyvisions
Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Toyota
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago
The voltages on the pins whene the ignition switch is in the start position are as follows:

pin 1= 12vdc

pin 2= 0vdc

pin 3= 0vdc

pin 5= 0vdc.

I removed AM2, 30A fuse,and put the ignition switch in the start position, the voltage at pin 5 was 12vdc and the starter engaged. I am using the Haynes Repair Manual for the 92 thru 1996. I do not have the wiring diagram for the 95 Camry; therefore, these pin numbers may differ from the ones you have from the Toyota Service Manual. I was unable to download the power diagram you attached to a previous response.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 9 years ago

I thought I sent you that info. Here is the real stuff double check it and let me know if it changes. Click on the download button and get back to me. Try these links let me know if you can read them? The download is scalable and I attached it as a print screen JPG.

DOWNLOAD

RXXXXX XXXXX

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Customer reply replied 9 years ago
Yes, I was able to download and read the information you sent and I believe you are correct in saying my problem is tied to the ignition switch and the associtated harness connector. I connected jumpers to the harness connector used to connect the ignition switch to the system to simulate the "on" position for the ignition switch. Thus, I connected pins 2,4 and 7 together and 9 and 10 together. I obtained these connections from the Haynes Manual, Pins 6 and 8 are not used on the harness connectors.This meant the ignition switch was not in the circuit. When the battery was connected to the system, the starter engaged. This says to me the problem has to be in the ignition switch or the harness; however, the switch is new and I have checked the pins on the harness and switch and found no problem.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 9 years ago

Now you have even me confused!! If you jumped 4 to 7 and 9 to 10 and the car started and ran and you have a new switch there has to be a pin fit problem.

RXXXXX XXXXX

Skyvisions
Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 14,517
Experience: Toyota Master Diagnostic
Verified
Skyvisions and 87 other Toyota Specialists are ready to help you
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago
After trying to finding a short in the AM2 line, I decided to make sure the problem was outside the ignition switch and harness connector connecting the ignition switch to the system. What I found was:

    1. I connected pins 2,4, and 7 and pins 9 and 10 with the ignition switch disconnected. These are the connections to simulate the ignition switch in the "start" position. Connecting the battery to the system the starter engaged. (At this point I am not trying to start the car, but only to under what conditions will the starter engage.)

    2. Connecting the Ignition Switch back into the system and placing this switch in ACC position, jumpering pins 4 and 7 the starter engaged, placing this switch in the "on" and jumpering pins 4 and 7 did not cause the starter to engage. Removing AM2 and jumpering pins 4 and 7 caused the starter to engage.

Since there is no voltage at pin 1 of the starter relay when the starter does not engage, I decided to make voltage measurement from pin 7 of the ignition switch to pin 1 of the starter relay. I disconnected the Park/Neutral SW and measured the voltage at pin 5 on the female connector and I found a voltage at this point when the Ignitin switch was in the "on" positin and this voltage changed as move the switch from "off" to "on." No voltage should be at this point except when the switch is in "start" position. What did you mean about a "pin fit" problem?
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 9 years ago

Plug everthing back in! Probe B/W pin 5 with volt meter at the nuetral safty switch. Turn the ignition switch to the start position. What is the voltage? Do the same thing at Black wire pin 6 at the nuetral safty switch. What is the voltage? Do the same thing at pin 1and pin 5 or posts of the starter relay. What are the voltages? Get back to me with these readings? We are going to do this one step at a time. Take the voltage reading and let me know what they are and make sure your meter is grounded good and the wires/post have good contact.

Loose pin fit just means the male and female pins of a connector are loose.

RXXXXX XXXXX

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Customer reply replied 9 years ago
I have spent a lot time trying to measure the voltages at the pins of the park/neutral switch, but I could not find a way. I tried to pierce the wire but could not without wholesale damage to the wire. Also, because of the location I was reluctance to cut down to bare wire. However, I measured the resistance between pins 5 and 6 of the park/neutral switch and it was zero as expected. Please suggest a way to make these voltages because what I am seeing does not make any sense. First, the voltage at pin 2 of the starter relay should be zero except in the start position, but I measured 5 vdc at pin 2 of the starter relay when the ignition switch was in the on position. This voltage disappeared when the ignition switch was turned to ACC an also when the AM2 was removed. I checked power diagrams and my data carefully and I found no way that in the "on" position a voltage should be applied to pin 2 of the starter relay. Secondly, how can removing AM2 remove this voltage. I tried both the new and old ignition switch and I got the same result. Everything points to the harness connector used to connect the ignition switch to the system.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 9 years ago

The easiest way to voltage check a connector that is plugged in is to take a hat pin or large needle and back probe parallel along side the wire and inside of the rubber seal plug of the connector. Push the needle in until you feel it hit the metal part of the pin inside of the connector, then alligator clip the test leads to the pin.

You should never be able to measure voltage at pin 2 of the starter relay in any position of the key. Pin 2 is the ground side of the coil winding and should always be less then .1 volt. If you have voltage there (pin 2) in the start position then there is high resistance in the ground wire white/black or the grounding bolt IG. or the junction block connectors 3C,1C 1M. What is the ohm reading from pin 2 with the relay removed and the engine ground?

There should never be voltage there (pin 2) in the on position. You have to be getting some kind of voltage feedback on this B-W wire going to the relay. Check the junction block connectors in the instrument panel junction block Connectors 1G and 1E see attached download on page 20 pull these connectors and isolate and find where the power is feeding to the B-W wire in the on position. Check for overheating or burned connectors in the junction block check for corrosion. Focus on this voltage in the pin 2 relay circuit in the on position and it may lead you to the problem.

Make sure all of your grounds are good. See attached download.

Download

Download

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Customer reply replied 9 years ago
Randy those downloads helped a great deal and as a result I think I have found the problem. There is an Directed Electronic's AUTO-MATE 2 and a relay used to disable the starting circuit by opening up the wiring going from pin 7 of the ignition switch to the harness. by jumpering this wire and its output from the relay the starter engaged with everything connected. This AUTO-MATE 2 circuit is some kind of security system. It was not indicated on your downloads or in my Haynes Manual; therefore, I am assumming it is an add-on that I can remove. I went to the Manufacturer's website but I could not identify the function of this circuit. The relay is used to switch the wire from pin 7 of the ignition switch in and out of the starting circuit. I could not find any way to reset the relay. Are you familiar with this device or its function? Based on the wiring I should be able to remove this circuit without causing any problems. Please advise.
Toyota Mechanic: Skyvisions, ASE Certified Technician replied 9 years ago

Great job! I am glad you found the problem. Unfortunately Auto-Mate 2 is not Toyota installed. I would just remove and throw the thing away. I have sent you enough wiring diagrams and you seem pretty sharp so you should not have any trouble putting things back to factory stuff.

Good luck and thanks again. If you need anything else you know how to find me.

RXXXXX XXXXX

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