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Looking for tax law advise, California, I owe State and

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California

Accountant's Assistant: Has anything been filed or reported?

I owe State and Federal Taxes for 2015 & 2016 and have worked out a monthly payment plan with the State but Federal is asking for a $6,100 lump sum by 1/28/18 before working out a monthly payment plan. If I cannot come up with the lump sum they will file a Notice of Federal Tax Lien that will be reported to the credit agencies. Is there any way to negotiate this?

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Answered in 11 minutes by:
1/17/2018
Lev
Lev, Tax Advisor
Category: Tax
Satisfied Customers: 31,206
Experience: Taxes, Immigration, Labor Relations
Verified

Yes - similarly - you will need to apply for the installment payment plan with the IRS.

A payment plan is an agreement with the IRS to pay the taxes you owe within an extended timeframe. You should request a payment plan if you believe you will be able to pay your taxes in full within the extended time frame.

There are several options

Short-term payment plan (120 Days or Less)

  • You may apply online or by phone, mail, or in-person: $0 setup fee

Long-term payment plan (installment agreement) (paying in more than 120 days through automatic withdrawals)

  • You may apply online: $31 setup fee
  • Apply by phone, mail, or in-person: $107 setup fee ($43 for low income taxpayers)
  • Fees are higher if there is no automatic withdrawals

How to apply ?

You may apply online - start here

https://www.irs.gov/payments/online-payment-agreement-application

or by mail - Complete and mail Form 9465, Installment Agreement Request (PDF) and Form 433-F, Collection Information Statement (PDF);

Or you may apply over the phone - call 800_829_1040 or the phone number on your bill or notice.

Let me know if that helps.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I understand all of that and have already talked to the IRS for a long term payment play the point in question is the $6,100 lump sum and Notice of Federal Tax Lien
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
can this be negotiated? I'd like to avoid the Notice of Federal Tax Lien and the damage it might cause to my credit

You may negotiate the installment payment plan instead of having to pay the full amount as a lump sum.

AS long as you you will have an installment payment plan in place and will keep current - you may avoid federal tax lien.

The IRS will verify your financial situation - and will be able to accept A LOWER amount - if that is based on your ability to pay.

In some circumstances - if you have a financial hardship - you may apply for CNC - currently not collectible status - and the IRS will stop all collection activities for specified period.

If you want to negotiate the amount of your tax debt - that is also possible via OIC - offer in compromise - but that will be a separate issue and most likely - you will need a local CPA representing you with the IRS.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
for Federal I owe $58,441.63, is there really anyway to negotiate that? I'm guessing not? They are telling me the following:
- Come up with $6,100 by 1/28/18
- Monthly payment would be $695 (under $50k payment plan)Or- Pay $680 a month (over 50k payment plan)
- If you chose this option they will file a Notice of Federal Tax Lien and it will be reported to the credit agencies
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I don't see where they are coming up with $6,100 as it would still be over the $50k, this is why I'm seeking some legal advise as I don't know if what they are telling me is entirely true as the IRS agent didn't sound to reassuring
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Hello?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I want to avoid this going on my credit report

Appreciate your update.
Based on your original statement - it sounded that $6,100 is all you owe to the IRS.
Because your tax debt is above $50,000 - you will not be able to avoid a federal tax lien - and it will be on your credit report.

A lien is a legal claim against your property to secure payment of your tax debt.

The IRS is required to file the lien.

the Notice of Federal Tax Lien will alert creditors that the government has a legal right to your property.

You will not be able to avoid that. Sorry.
But the lien is NOT the same as levy. A levy is a legal seizure of your property to satisfy a tax debt.

So as long as you will be current with your installment obligation - the IRS will not levy.

But you will not be able to avoid levy unless you think that levy is not valid and you pay appeal IRS actions.

Your appeal rights are explained in IRS Publication 1660, Collection Appeal Rights

But based on your information - I do not think that will help.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
It almost sounded like the IRS agent was asking if I could come up with at least $6,100 and at that point it was still over $50k. Is it recommended that I try an offer in compromise and can I still make monthly payments?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I don't own any property at the moment and when I do what legal right do they have?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
all the ads on TV about negotiating with the IRS if you own $10k or more really isn't true then?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
are you still there?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Hello, are you there?

First of all "adds on TV" are almost always sounds better than they actually are...

If you are looking for representation - it might be better to discuss your situation with a local CPA rather than use that TV add.

Please be aware the IRS has rights to file the Notice of Federal Tax Lien even if your tax debt is less than $50k and even if you are agreed and current with your installment agreement.

The only way to prevent that - to have their obligation NOT to file the Notice of Federal Tax Lien in the installment agreement.

.

On the other hand - if you do not own any property - the IRS has no reason to file the Notice of Federal Tax Lien because there is nothing they may use to protect the government legal rights...
However - they still may levy on your wages and your bank account if you failed to negotiate the installment agreement.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
ok, so if I cannot come up with the $6,100 I can still try and negotiate with them to not file the Notice of Federal Tax Lien?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Is it really worth my time to find representation based on what I've shared with you?

Yes - that is possible - but your chances that the IRS agrees are minimal...
On the other hand - if you do not own any property - the is no any asset for the IRS to register the lien...

The lien may be only attached to the property.

If you will make an installment agreement - in most situations you woudl not need any representation.

But you want to approach the OIC - I would suggest to retain representative.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
what is the income threshold where an OIC could work? So if I don't own any property there is no reason for them to register a lien then? What if I buy a house in a couple of years, could they place a lien then?

There is NO threshold for the OIC.

Your ability to negotiate is based on "reasonable collection potential" (RCP) - the amount of money the IRS "thinks" they can collect from you for your tax debts.

if you don't own any property - there is no WAY for the IRS to register the lien - but if you do not negotiate - they will levy on your income and assets.

If you will purchase a property - yes - they will be able to register the lien on that property.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
ok, what do you recommend I do in this situation?

First of all - be ready to enter in any installment payment agreement - that prevents you from levies.

That will be more important that having liens.

Then - collect all your financial information and get a consultation with a local CPA - to determine your eligibility for OIC - and if yes - you may work out the approach.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
ok, so them trying to get $6,100 out of me right now is more of a scare tactic? I have to call them back before 1/28/18 with a plan. Would they typically extend time to figure out if a OIC is an option? I've also been contemplating bankruptcy as I'm making half as much as I used to, but that doesn't make any of this go away correct (if I file BK)
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
can I figure out eligibility for OIC on my own or I have to consult with a CPA?

so them trying to get $6,100 out of me right now is more of a scare tactic?

We may say that - but all the IRS doing is their job to collect the tax debt...

Would they typically extend time to figure out if a OIC is an option?

Yes - they will hold some aggressive collection activities while your OIC is in consideration.

I've also been contemplating bankruptcy as I'm making half as much as I used to, but that doesn't make any of this go away correct (if I file BK)

If the tax debt meets all five of these rules, then the tax debt is discharged in bankruptcy petitions.
-The due date for filing a tax return is at least three years ago.
-The tax return was filed at least two years ago.
-The tax assessment is at least 240 days old.
-The tax return was not fraudulent.
-The taxpayer is not guilty of tax evasion.

can I figure out eligibility for OIC on my own or I have to consult with a CPA?

You may start on your own - but to be precised most likley you will need help

here - https://irs.treasury.gov/oic_pre_qualifier/

.

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Experts are ONLY credited when answers are rated positively.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
ok, my company went out of business in 2014 and had debt to deal with so I didn't withhold enough in 2015 and 2016 with new employer to help pay for the debt and legal fees with the old business. 2017 I was back to normal withholdings, but I'm making half what I used to. I think I can make the payment plan work, but it will be a stretch, that's why I was looking at BK, but I'd rather not. Some people have told me to just go BK as "everyone does it" these days. But I can't help to think it does more harm than good (especially being married with two kids)
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
on tax returns can you use a PO Box or does it have to be a physical address?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
same with all the tax notices I keep getting, can the get mailed to a PO Box?

I understand that is no a simple decision when you looking for bankruptcy protection.

But if you do - be sure that all above requirements are satisfied.

Yes - you may PO box for all correspondence with the IRS.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
in your professional opinion are you typically better off not going BK and just figure out a way to make it all work?

If that is your only debt - you might better not to file for bankruptcy protection - but verify if you will be eligible for OIC.

If you have other debts - the situation might be different.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I have about $40k of other debt as well. Currently I'm making it all work, just really stretched. Do you work with bankruptcies as well

Unfortunately - I am only limited by the tax area.

You may want to post another question regarding possible bankruptcy filing.

Just be sure to verify all these tax debt items to qualify - which I posted above.

Sometimes bankruptcy attorneys overlook these requirements.

Ask Your Own Tax Question
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I went through the OIC pre-qualifier and I do not qualify. Looks like I just need to call the IRS back and set up a payment plan as I outlined earlier in this thread of what they can offer me. Are those monthly dollar amounts set in stone or can I try and negotiate the payment to be lower? Also, in looking through notes from the last IRS agent I spoke with she told me if I cannot come up with the $6,100 lump sum (which I don't have) they can offer me $680 monthly payment and they will file a Notice of Federal Tax Lien and it would be reported to the credit agencies. In reading through our correspondence you told me there is no way they can register / file a Notice of Federal Tax Lien because I don't own any property?I found this on the IRS website:A lien is a legal claim against all your current and future property. When you don’t
pay your first bill for taxes due, a lien is created by law and attaches to your
property. A Notice of Federal Tax Lien (NFTL) provides public notice to creditors
and is filed to establish priority of the IRS claim versus the claims of other
creditors. The IRS may file an NFTL while your offer is being considered. However,
an NFTL will usually not be filed until a final decision has been made on your offer.So, do they actually file a NFTL now and it doesn't go into effect until I actually own property? My main concern right now is if they actually file the NFTL can it actually damage my credit and prevent me from ever getting property?

If they file NOW NFTL - it will be reflected on your tax return - and all potential creditors will be notified.

So - yes - your credit score will be affected.

We can't say how bad it will be damaged - but for sure will be affected.
However - the IRS will need to file and register the tax lien on any specific property to have it in effect.

If for instance - you purchase a real property AFTER the NFTL is filled - the IRS will need to register the lien against that property - in the county where the property is located - but the mortgage will still have a priority.

So only your equity will be affected by that tax lien.

If you will apply for the equity loan or a second mortgage - most likely you will be rejected.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
What does the NOW stand for? Is there really anyway to negotiate with the IRS to not file the lien? Is it a case by case basis?

NOW stands for today.
You may negotiate with the IRS not to file NFTL - but that is case by case basis.

In order for that agreement to be in effect - that should be written in the installment agreement.

However - that will be a rare situation when the IRS agree on that in writing.

At least I never saw that.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Ok, so I should probably call them tomorrow and see if I can get an agreement with no NFTL and if so, get that in writing. Does it really depend on the person I talk to and what they feel like doing or is this more of computer generated outcome? If they do file the NFTL will they automatically make it public?

That depends on your financial situation...

not on the specific IRS agent.
I doubt that the IRS will agree not to file NFTL - but there is nothing wrong if you try.

Yes the NFTL is always public - that is its purpose.

Ask Your Own Tax Question
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
If my wife and I filed jointly does that mean the NFTL goes on both of our credit? If we were to start up a business would the NFTL attach to that as well?

Yes - if that is a joint tax debt - each spouse will be affected.

The NFTL will be only attached for you personally.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Wow, ok. So it could affect a sole proprietor business but not an LLC or C-Corp?

Correct - as long as the creditor will not ask for personal guarantee - the credit score for your business will not be affected.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
it indeed could affect a sole proprietor business?

Yes - as long as your personal credit report will be verified.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
ok, so it sounds like LLC is the best route?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
does the NFTL withhold earnings of a sole prop?

The tax lien doesn't "withhold" anything,

A lien is a legal claim against your property to secure payment of your tax debt.

But the lien is NOT the same as levy. A levy is a legal seizure of your property to satisfy a tax debt.

So as long as you will be current with your installment obligation - the IRS will not levy.

Ask Your Own Tax Question

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Customer reply replied 30 days ago
I had a chat with an IRS agent this morning and the conversation went well. She want's me to fill out the form 433-D and then fax it to them. A manager will then review my case and determine if they will file a NFTL. She told me just because it's over $50k doesn't mean they automatically file the NFTL.

Great news.

I appreciate if you take a moment to rate the answer.
Experts are ONLY credited when answers are rated positively.

Lev
Lev, Tax Advisor
Category: Tax
Satisfied Customers: 31,206
Experience: Taxes, Immigration, Labor Relations
Verified
Lev and 87 other Tax Specialists are ready to help you
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Customer reply replied 27 days ago
Is it better to use a PO Box from some place like Mail Boxes Etc so you can get a physical address like*****#112, Anywhere, CA ? Does the IRS question this type of address? Is it ok to still get regular mail at my home address as well?

In most situations - the IRS is only concerned about mailing address - so all correspondence will get to the addressee.

The IRS is mainly using regular mail as a primary source of communications.

In some situations physical address is preferable if it is used to proof any position - for instance to proof your primary residence - but that is not required.

You may use several different addresses - if that is convenient for you.

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Customer reply replied 27 days ago
Any feedback?
Customer reply replied 27 days ago
Any feedback on this?

Please verify if you were able to read my comments above?
I will report them again just to be sure you are receiving my post....

.

In most situations - the IRS is only concerned about mailing address - so all correspondence will get to the addressee.

The IRS is mainly using regular mail as a primary source of communications.In some situations physical address is preferable if it is used to proof any position - for instance to proof your primary residence - but that is not required.You may use several different addresses - if that is convenient for you.
Ask Your Own Tax Question
Customer reply replied 26 days ago
Do I have to give the IRS a reason for the address change?

Taxpayers are often move - that is very common - no need to provide your reasons.

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