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Trying to figure out what size steel beam I need for my

Customer Question
residential rehab. JA: OK. Tell me...
trying to figure out what size steel beam I need for my residential rehab.
JA: OK. Tell me a bit more about what's going on so we can help you best.
Customer: I have a 22'1" span with two LVL's sistered together in place currently. 12" high x 1.75" wide each, and they are bowing under the weight of the second and third floor. House was redesigned mid plans, after LVL's were in place, now I'm trying to remedy the situation
JA: Is there anything else important you think the Structural Engineer should know?
Customer: third floor walls are inset 5' from exterior side walls, which isn't carrying the load down correctly to the beam in place......
Submitted: 1 year ago.Category: Structural Engineering
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8/22/2016
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago
StructuralEng
StructuralEng, Consultant
Category: Structural Engineering
Satisfied Customers: 7,478
Experience: Structural Engineer
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Hello

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

I can help

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

Do you want the properly sized LVLs?

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

Is it supporting the second and third floors?

Is there an attic, too?

What is the joist length on each side of the beam?

Will it support any ceramic tile?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
I think I need to replace the LVL's with either steel? The third floor is usable space, considered an attic. Not sure off the top of my head what the joist length is on each side, but one is longer than the other. I've attached a few pics, and yes, there will be ceramic tile in the master bath, and wood floors throughout. Load is carried all the way down to the basement with beam, load bearing wall, and lolli columns. It's a unique and tricky situation with the front door being where it is and the LVL's snugging next to it.......that's something that cannot be changed. Thoughts? Will a flitch plate outside the LVL's work bolted through????
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

But this beam itself is supporting the second and third floors only, correct?

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

You said snugged next to the front door. Is it parallel or perpendicular to the front door?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Second and third floors, correct. And after just looking at the plans, the third floor is inset only 3'6", not 5'. If you look in the second picture I attached, the front door (green temporary door) you can see the LVL runs perpendicular.
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

Can you estimate the joist length on each side?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
approximately 8' on one side, 15' on the other. Did you see the pics to get a better understanding of what I'm talking about?
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

I did

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

You really need a 7" x 24" 2.0E LVL to limit deflection to L/600 for the tile.

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

You would need a MC12x50 on each side of the existing wood beam

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
you're saying basically doubling the size of the two beams currently sistered in place? The 7"x24" would be one beam or would I need two of them sistered together? What about steel, or even flitch plates as an option?
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

It could be a 3.5" x 24" on each side of the existing.

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

I listed the steel channel you would need on each side.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Ok......so there's no confusion. So I can replace the current LVL set up with the 7"x24" LVL's with the MC 12x50 on each side? Is there any remedy that can be done with the current LVL's in place using steel channel or plates?
Customer reply replied 1 year ago
I want to know if I just use the existing LVL's that are in place, if the MC 12 x 50 is enough to support the load, or do I have to redo everything that is there?
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

If you use the 7" x 24" LVL, then you don't need the channels.

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

Adding the two channels would be if you leave the existing LVL in place.

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

.

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

Do you have any other questions for me on this topic? If you could rate my answer, I would appreciate it.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
I do actually. Most likely going to go the route of the steel channel. Would you happen to know how many carriage bolts are needed without ruining the integrity of the LVL?
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

I can do that calculation and provide a sketch as a premium service. I will submit the offer now. If you accept it, I'll need about 2 hours to get it together.

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

I submitted the offer. I'll need to know where the top of the channels are relative to the bottom of the joists.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Instead of doing the channel, what thickness of steel would be needed to just do a plate on each side? Then sandwich all that together with two more LVL's to hang joists from?? Of course, carriage bolt all that together....
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

What is the maximum depth of plate that you can handle there? Just to let you know, the plates will be heavier than the channels since the steel is not as efficiently placed.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
In trying to keep the current LVL's in place, max depth would be the current 12".
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

What is the exact depth? 11.25" or 11.875"

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

You would need a 1 7/8" x 12" plate on each side full length.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
1 7/8 seems very thick! I did mention that LVL's would be placed outside that to hang joists from right??
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

Yes, but the stiffness of the wood is not high enough to compete with the steel, so it will not attract load. I said the plate would be heavier, because a plate is not an efficient use of steel in bending.

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

And 12" isn't much depth to support that much load over a 22' span.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Believe me, I'm not discounting your expertise at all.....just shocked! Let me think about this for a bit, perhaps I'll have you draw up the bolt pattern for both applications.....plate and channel.....
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

No problem. To give you a sense. Each channel weighs 50 pounds per foot. The plates have the exact same moment of inertia (so they will have the exact same deflection), but they weigh 77 pounds per foot.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
If I wanted to get crazy and change out the current LVL'S for say 18" depth by 1.75" wide......how much does that change my scenario???
Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

If you wanted to take out the current beam, I would recommend installing a properly sized I beam with a detail to allow joist hangers into the side.

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Structural Engineer: StructuralEng, Consultant replied 1 year ago

That would actually make the total weight of the beam drop to 40 pounds per foot, instead of 100 pounds per foot for the 12" channels or 150 pounds per foot for the plates.

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