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2004 Grand AM: My signal lights and dash lights..flasher..light switch…

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I have a 2004 Grand...
I have a 2004 Grand AM GT. My signal lights and dash lights were not working. The mechanic that I use for all my work could not find the problem so he ran a jumper wire to the back of the 4-way flasher switch to give me signal lights and he ran a jumper from the back of the light switch to give me dash lights. The next day my car would not start. It would turn over fine but would not fire. He did some diagnostic checking and traced it back to a possible PCM/ECM issue. As he is a small garage mechanic, he did not want to order this part in for fear that if this was not the problem then he would have a part he could not return. He suggested that I take the car to a dealer, which I did. The first time it went to the dealer, they said that the car needed new spark plugs and an injector purge. The car has 122,000 km (76,000 miles). I did not agree with this diagnose, but that was all they could find. I drove my car away and the next day it did the same thing. It went back to the repair shop   <p>I have a 2004 Grand AM GT. My signal lights and dash lights were not working. The mechanic that I use for all my work could not find the problem so he ran a jumper wire to the back of the 4-way flasher switch to give me signal lights and he ran a jumper from the back of the light switch to give me dash lights. The next day my car would not start. It would turn over fine but would not fire. He did some diagnostic checking and traced it back to a possible PCM/ECM issue. As he is a small garage mechanic, he did not want to order this part in for fear that if this was not the problem then he would have a part he could not return. He suggested that I take the car to a dealer, which I did. The first time it went to the dealer, they said that the car needed new spark plugs and an injector purge. The car has 122,000 km (76,000 miles). I did not agree with this diagnose, but that was all they could find. I drove my car away and the next day it did the same thing. It went back to the repair shop and this time they said that the car was losing its crankshaft memory sensor and they traced it to the ECM. They would reset the ECM and it would start but it seems like if the car sits for a few hours, it loses its memory again. They replaced that and I drove the car home. The next day it would not start again so back to the dealer it went. This time they said that they talked to GM and they suggested the removal of the remote starter because that is tied into the ECM. When that did not work, they were then advised to remove the radio because it was an aftermarket radio and not a factory radio. When that did not solve the problem, they next removed the jumper that was feeding the 4-way flasher and they said it fired up right away. I brought the car home and a few hours later, nothing. It is now back at the dealership for the 4<sup>th</sup> time to try to solve this problem. I know this is a lot of info, but I wanted to give you as much info as possible. Any ideas what could be wrong? Thanks.</p>
Submitted: 8 years ago.Category: Pontiac
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Answered in 4 hours by:
6/27/2010
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Amedee
Amedee, Pontiac Technician
Category: Pontiac
Satisfied Customers: 28,313
Experience: ASE certified Technician advanced level specialist. Wisconsin certified emissions state inspector
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Hello!

 

DOes the vehicle start up and run as of now? Can you get it to act up?

 

Are the dash lights currently now working?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Relist: Other
The tech asked me for more info and I sent it to him but I have not heard anything back from him.
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Sorry for the miscommunication. I need to know a few things from you in order to get you a correct answer.

Does the vehicle start up and run as of now? Can you get it to act up?

 

Are the dash lights currently now working?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
No the car is not running as of now. It will only start if the ECM is reset. Then it seems to run until it sits for a few hours. After that it seems to lose its memory again. Also the dash lights are not working at present. After the jumper was removed from the 4-way flasher and it fired up, we thought we would try to remove the jumper from the headlight switch and see what would happen. The removal of the jumper did nothing towards starting the car and with the jumper removed there is no dashlights now.
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Does the check engine light come on with the key in the on position?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
No
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Ok.. this is our problem. The check engine light or service vehicle soon light should come on with the key in the on position for a bulb check. If it does, not, chances are the computer is not waking up. When this happens, usually the correct fix is to check all powers and grounds to the ECM. Usually there is one missing causing this problem. HOwever, your ignition switch just might be bad causing this problem. THis is very common. The ignition switch has a high failure rate on these vehicles. I would start there.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

I thought you meant was the check engine light on when the car was running. The check engine light comes on when you turn the key on, but if the ECM is reset and you get the car running, the light goes off when the car is running. And secondly, we tried a new ignition switch and the car still did not run.

Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
What do you mean by reseting the computer?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
That is what the mechanic was calling it. Not sure how he was resetting it.
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Ok... well, since it is not starting, lets run some diagnostic tests.

When your car is cranking over and is not starting, we will have to pinpoint what the engine is missing.


Spark


Fuel


Compression



All three of these are tested when the engine is being cranked over. There are two way of checking for fuel. Fuel pressure and fuel trigger. Both are very important and must be present for the car to start. Fuel pressure is self explanatory. You just hook up the gage and see what the reading is. Fuel trigger is check with a noid light. The injector gets unplugged and the noid light gets plugged in to the injector clip. With the engine cranking over, this light must blink. This is the signal to the injectors from the computer. You can have all the fuel pressure in the world, but it wont matter if the injector is not pulsing gas into the cylinder like it should! Compression tester, spark tester, fuel pressure gage and noid light are all accessible at your local auto store. All three tests play a very important part in diagnosing a no start condition. Be extremely careful when doing these tests.



A simpler test would be to see if it runs on starting fluid. If it does, then you know you have spark and compression and you simply have a fuel delivery problem

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
We did all that. The last time it quit running, we tried pouring fuel into the intake and it did not run. We checked for spark and ther was no spark.
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Do we have fuel pressure? How much?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Yes I think he said when he checked it with a guage it was about 60lbs??
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Ok.. so fuel pressure is good but no spark?

Have we checked injector signal?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

There is no injector signal when the car is in the state it is now. Once the ECM is reset and the car starts, there is injector signal. Everything works great, until the car sits for a few hours and then you are back to square one again with no injector signal or spark.It just turns over and will not fire.

Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Does the secuirty light come on or flash when the key is turned ot the on position?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
No I thought about that to because my Malibu has that problem. The light comes on when you first turn the key on, but as soon as you turn it over, it goes off.
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Right... but the light should go off after about 5 seconds after the key is turned on if the secuirty system is not active.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
What if the light stays on?
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Then the anti theft system is activated.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Is that deactivated by turning your key on for 10 minutes and then shutting it off and then starting it?
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Well, that is the reset procedure... but it does not always deactivate it.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
How do you deactivate it?
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
By doing the relearn procedure.. correctly. If that does not work, then the ignition switch needs to be replaced and the relearn procedure needs ot be done again.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
How do you do the relearn procedure?
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF.

Attempt to start the engine, then release the key to ON, vehicle will not start.
Observe the SECURITY telltale. After approximately 10 minutes , the telltale will turn OFF. The vehicle is now ready to relearn the Passlock Sensor Data Code and/or password XXXXX the next ignition switch transition from OFF to CRANK.
Turn OFF the ignition, and wait 5 seconds .
Start the engine, the vehicle has now learned the password.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

If it was the anti theft system causing the problem, would that not show up in the codes when you do a scan on the car?

Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
It might... but not always. However it will for sure it there was a malfunction in the secuirty system.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Apparently the dealership has done their scan on it numerous times, so they tell me, and absolutley nothing is showing up in the codes. And why would it run as soon as they reset the ECM and everytime you try it after that? It just will not run after it has sat for a few hours. If it was the security system, would it not do it all the time?
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Correct.. but sometimes the BCM looses the code from the ignition switch. THIs is why the relearn procedure needs to be done at times.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I am just getting ready to head home. I will try this when I get home and see what happens. Will you be available online later on to talk to again?
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
You bet!

You can always accept my answer now and we can still continue our conversation if needed.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
If I accept your answer, will I still get adivce from you or will I have to pay again?
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
You will still be able to get advice from me... you do not have to pay again. Just repost back to this thread after accepting one of my answers and I will get it.
Amedee
Amedee, Pontiac Technician
Category: Pontiac
Satisfied Customers: 28,313
Experience: ASE certified Technician advanced level specialist. Wisconsin certified emissions state inspector
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
OK thanks. I will let you know how I make out.
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
Sounds good!

I will be waiting for your reply!
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

Hi Amedee:

 

I tried the relearn procedure like you suggested and the car did not start.

Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago

Sorry for the delay!

 

After you did the relearn procedure, does the security light illuminate on the dash when the key is turned on? IT is supposed to come on and then go off after about 5 seconds.

Does it still flash when you turn the key on?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
The light always did come on when I turned the key on. It never did flash, it just stayed on solid. I know with my Avalanche, the light comes on and then goes off after about 5 seconds but according to the owners manual for the Grand AM, it says that the light should come on and stay on until the car is started.
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago

THis might be the case... sometimes they should stay on and sometimes they will go off after about 5 seconds. We can take a different approach and go about diagnosing it a different way.

 

Do you have access to a scanner? Do you have a voltmeter?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
no
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago

Ok.. but you did say that fuel pressure is ok...right?

 

NO spark and injector pulse?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
The last we checked the fuel pressure was ok but there was no pulse or spark. Could it be the ECM is f'd
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
YES.. it could be... but I dont think this is the case. I would go after the crank sensor before replacing the ECM.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
How big of a job is it to replace the crank sensor, labour wise and cost wise
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
WHat size engine do you have?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
6 cylinder it's a GT coupe
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago

THere is two on this engine. HOwever, you will be concerned with the one that sites on the side of the engine... not the front of the motor.

 

THis crank sensor sits on the side of the motor (back of the engine compartment) between the engine and transmission. It is not hard to change... and should not cost a lot if you have a shop do it... maybe a few hundred bucks or less... that is ... if it is bad... be sure to test it to be sure it is bad before replacing it.

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Ok I will try this out. I will let you know how I make out. Thanks.
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago

Here is some more tests that you can run.

Verify good power and ground to the ignition module while cranking. If the power is not battery voltage cranking, check power in and out of the ignition switch. If power and ground are OK, check the Yellow and Purple crank sensor wires with an ohmmeter. The sensor should be in the 800-1,200 ohm range. If not, verify the wires to the sensor are OK. If OK, replace the crank sensor. If the crank sensor ohm tests OK, switch to AC volts on a meter. With the leads of the meter still across the Yellow and the Purple wire, crank the engine. The sensor should produce at least 0.5 volts of AC voltage. If not, verify the wires are good and replace the crank sensor.

If the sensor output is OK, replace the ignition module.

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Will do thanks.
Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago
You bet!
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

Hi Amedee

 

Turns out that the problem was a blown fuse for the ignition module. We were not sure why the fuse blew but replaced it and it fired up right now. It worked over and over and over. Went to move it today and as soon as I put it in reverse, the car died. Checked the fuse again and it was blown. Pulled the plug off of the ignition module and we found the insulation on both wires was rubbed off. We taped up the bare wires and replaced the fuse and it seems to be running fine now. I will just have to keep my fingers crossed that the problem is solved. Thanks for all your help.

 

Lester

Pontiac Mechanic: Amedee, Pontiac Technician replied 8 years ago

Yup!

 

THat will do it!

 

Glad to hear it is fixed!

 

 

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