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Doug
Doug, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Mitsubishi
Satisfied Customers: 8594
Experience:  Mitsubishi employed and Factory trained ASE certified technician
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Mitsubishi spider: Doug, I talked to you about 2 years ago

Customer Question

Hi Doug, I talked to you about 2 years ago on a 2002 Mitsubishi spider 2.4. Stopped at a drug store, came back and car wouldn't start. After going through a check list of things and you thought it was probably the crank sensor sending a dirty signal back. When checking a few other things I discovered that the radiator was leaking, opened the cap and there was pressure. I decided that the cost to pull the engine, replace the sensor and head gasket would be about the same as buying a used engine that I knew ran. I did and haven't resolved the problem.
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Mitsubishi
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Our last conversation was Sept. 10, 2013 6:54 pm est
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
Hi,
What is the current condition exactly?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I replaced the engine, I have a 2001, 118,000mi, changed the intake manifold and cam reluctor wheel. Attempted to start and had nothing. Pulled the fuel line and it pumped some fuel into a glass. Checked the injectors and have no pulse, checked across pins and ground to +battery. Checked coils with spark plug, no spark, checked for with analog tester and showed slight reading. I am going to take my digital meter next time to check if any voltage. I had removed a steering column w/key and the ecu from a 2002 with a 2.4 engine and plugged the ignition wires in, still no start but with a few other things working that didn't before.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
Thanks.
Lets go back to basics then.... unplug the crank sensor, see if we have 12V and 5V on the harness with the key on.
If we do, plug it back in and back probe the 5V wire, then rotate the engine slowly clock wise by hand and see if the 5V alternates with 0V as you turn the engine.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I have our previous conversation transcript and will do everything over the weekend, at latest Mon. night. With the different ecu and steering column in I get a clicking sound (before I called it a buzz-burr noise) when I turn the key to the on position, it lasts a few seconds and quits, same as with previous engine. You thought it was a failing IAC. I mention this because prior to the engine quitting I had problems with my headlights not staying on, sometimes one and not the other. After hooking up the wires to the different ignition (steering column) and not the light switch or any other switch on the column, the lights come on when I turn the ignition, and go off several seconds after I turn the key off. The day before changing the column & ecu, I pulled all of the relays under the hood and dash because I wanted to test them to see if one was bad. I didn't get around to testing them and put them back before trying the different ignition and ecu. I want to know that if there was a faulty relay (maybe the clicking sound) would that have an effect on starting, maybe the MFI relay and the evap system, I got a check engine light and that code the night before the problem after overfilling my gas tank.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
After thinking about it, that theory probably doesn't hold water unless I put the faulty relay miraculously back in the same place the second time and it had nothing to do with the lights.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
I'm sorry I'm having some difficulty with my connection this afternoon.
There really shouldn't be any difference between swapping those parts causing a different noise or anything like that unless something coincidental happened (wiring related, something loosened, etc).
Lets go back and redo all of our basic inspections and get a baseline for where we stand now. Never mind the engine being changed and the associated variables that can be introduced, a lot can happen in a year too. Lets see exactly what we have going on and make a list for me on those inspections and we'll approach it fresh.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hey Doug, crank sensor returns 5.1v, cam sensor was no good and I replaced it with a new one that I bought for the old one, it returns 4.9v, timing belt marks line up, both coils reads 12v- ground- .03v. This was read with a digital meter and I think it is slow and probably the median number. I saw a 5 or 6 when I first started cranking the motor but it was gone to fast to see if it was .6 or .06 and then it dropped to 1 and then repeated .03-.02-.03 thereafter. I did not get a spark when I had a plug, the car would not start. My analog meter is old and the lowest reading is at a factor of 10 so I could not get a reading. I will see if I can find one that reads a .01 and up. I didn't have time to change out the coils with the other ones that I have.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
Hi,
When reading the 5V wires on the cam and the crank sensors (sensors plugged in of course), what do you see when you rotate the engine by hand?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
They oscillated 5-0-5.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
Great, so both sensors appear to be working.
Do your ignition coils have one pin with 12V when the key is on?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
They both have a ground and 12v. I will check the injectors in the next couple days and the fuel pump was delivering fuel to the rail last time I checked, about a quarter measuring cup worth in about 2-3 seconds.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
It sounds like you are definitely delivering sufficient fuel by volume.
When you can lets check the injector pulse and check for spark while cranking and that should help us narrow it down significantly.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I checked spark and there was none. When I had the engine out, I replaced the timing belt, lined the marks up with the first cylinder at top of compression & valves closed
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
Great.
At no point were any of the computers changed in this car right?
Do you have a spare key you can try for comparison?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
In my notes yesterday I let you know that I took a steering column, its key and the ecu out of a 02 eclipse that had a 2.4 engine, I did not take the existing steering column out of my car but did hook the 2 wiring harness ignition plugs to the one from the other car and replaced the ecu
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I had 2 original keys with a "N" stamp with my car.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
The car ran fine for 3 weeks with the original parts after I bought it.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
With the parts that were changed these do need to be done in sets...when the engine ecu was replaced, was not just the key but also the immobilizer ecu swapped with it (it is located below the radio)? If these are mismatched it will lock the immobilizer.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I can probably send you a copy of our first conversation from a year and a half ago. It is my understanding that immobilizer in a 2002 is universal and will work with other ecu's
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
That is incorrect. While the same part was used in multiple years, they are coded when the keys are programmed. If you swap a different engine ecu in or a different immobilizer ecu in you MUST reprogram the keys to re-pair the two ecus. Otherwise you get a mismatch between the two ecus.
You can swap used parts from another car, but you have to have a matching set of engine ecu, immobilizer ecu, and key/lock cylinder. If you only have one ecu you will not have injector pulse or spark.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I did pull a apx 2"x2"x3/4" silver box that was below the radio. I thought it was the immobilize but after reading back our previous conversations, you said it was a black box, I still have that box and can get the part number from it. I am sure the car is still in the junk yard that my friend owns and get additional parts if needed. From what I read and our previous conversations, from 2002 and after, the immobilizer does not have to be matched to the ecu, the code was in the ecu and no longer in the immobilizer. The ignition, key, steering column, silver box and ecu are all from the same 2002 mitsubishi eclipse car and I checked the vin tag on the drivers door for the engine and transmission type that was in the car. With the exception of the silver box, all of these parts are in my care now.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
The silver box is the cruise control and is not related here. For a 2002 you would expect the immobilizer ecu to be either MR583146 or MR141577. It is mounted right behind the cruise control.
The immobilizer ecu does have to be matched if you want to avoid going to a dealer for programming. If you are going to have it programmed then they do not need to match. If you are looking for a direct swap you have to have the matching ecus and key.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
the engine was not from that car but from a 2001. I swapped the intake manifold and cam reluctor from the engine that was in my car to the new engine.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
The engine is fine as long as you swapped the cam reluctor off the 2002 engine, you are fine there.
Since it sounds like we have a mismatched ecu, lets get the original ecu and key back in there and verify we still have good cam and crank signals with it but still no spark or fuel pulse. If that is the case, then go to the immobilizer ecu and get me the serial number off of it and I will get an over ride so we can see if there is a key issue or something going on. We need to get the two ecus and key matched again first though, and then verify that with the original ecu you still have good cam and crank signals.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I do not understand, the key, complete steering column with ignition switch and ecu that I have swaping are from the same car in the junk yard, my original key and ecu are no longer in my car...... when you say ecus, how many ecus are in the same car that have to match. The only other black box that I saw was rectangular in shape and about 3"x4" located between the glove box and the heater assembly.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
Two ecus, the engine ecu that mounts on the passenger firewall and the immobilizer ecu that mounts below the radio (right near the silver cruise box).
These are what you need to swap... if any one of these parts is missing, the car won't have spark or injector pulse:

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Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I will get the other immobilizer from the other car, I must have misunderstood when you told me that "the immobilizer from 2000-2005 is identical with one exception : after early 2001 the immobilizer and ecu no longer marry to each other. On early models the two would permanently marry making a used ecu pretty much worthless without the matching immobilizer ecu." I will get back to you when I have the part..... Thanks, Steve
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
The 2000 and early 2001 permanently marry... they can never be used with any other ecu on those years. 2002-2005 you can swap at will... but that doesn't exclude you from requiring programming. If you want to avoid programming, you have to have a matched set.
The difference being that the permanent marrying models you can't program them to work again, they are worthless once separated from their match. The 02-05 still pair, but can be re-paired an infinite amount of times. If you mismatch to ecus, you still have to pair them via programming.
As before...the systems behave identically except for that difference. I apologize if I was not completely clear on that before, I can see how it could have been interpreted that way.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Thanks for the clarification, I prefer to go back to distributors, points and carburetors. Talk later Doug
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
No problem, keep me posted.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi Doug, Had a chance to stop at the junk yard today and got the immobilizer and put it in the car. I didn't have a lot of time ( I live near Cleveland, missed the Sunday Cavs playoff game and didn't want to miss tonights game) but I did have time to check one coil voltage, it showed .3v. I checked it 4 or 5 times and got the same reading. I also smelled gas fumes. I had disconnected both coil before I tested the one, so I didn't want to try to start the engine until I explored where the gas smell was coming from and had to leave anyway.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
Hi,
If you smelled the fuel after cranking the engine, that is a good sign your injectors are probably operating now.
On the coils, are you saying you are seeing 0.3V on the trigger wire while cranking? If so that is also good... you want to see between .3 and 3V for trigger voltage.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
That was while cranking..... I was happy on the gas smell and then a little worried on. I could only think of 2 places that it would come from if the injectors were working... the exhaust or the intake. Exhaust is ok but the intake could mean I did something wrong when I changed the timing belt. Either way I would be encouraged. Tomorrow I will check the voltage at the injectors and then check the position of #1 piston and the timing marks. If it was out of phase could I tell if the timing is ok without seeing the valve positions, ie would the timing marks line up if #1 was at the top on the exhaust cycle?
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
Keep in mind that you are going to stink of fuel if there is no spark and those injectors are ticking, that is normal.
I wouldn't get too worried about that just yet... if it didn't smell when cranking before and it does not it is definitely the injectors operating meaning your immobilizer is unlocked now. The timing should not be an issue if you got your marks lined up... the oil pump is the only one that is phased and wouldn't affect this situation. If the cam is lined up vertical to the mark and the crank gear marks are lined up, it is right.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
They did and the smaller belt ***** *****ned up when everything was put together. I will probably see if it starts tomorrow, I expect it will but I will check the injectors if it doesn't. I have a few other non related questions to ask and you can answer when you have time. One of them is that the last time I filled the tank I had to put the gas in very very slowly. When I pulled the nozzle out I noticed the flapper on the hole that the nozzle fits into was missing. That thing is not that large that it would cause the problem and I saw no kinks in the line going to the tank.....have any ideas about that?
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
No problem.
Before passing judgment on the filling situation... be sure to try another station. Probably one out of every four or five times customers come in with that problem they were just at a crummy pump.
If it persists on another fill up, check the ventilation solenoid on the tank is not stuck shut (these fail a lot) and also try to extract the fallen flap as it may be causing an issue. Beyond that, it will be time to drop the tank to check the ports, all the hoses and filler neck etc for blockage.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
let you go for the night, thanks
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
You're welcome.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hey Doug, got the engine started tonight, runs pretty rough but seemed to be smoothing out somewhat after I held it to a higher rpm but still wouldn't idle. It may be the gas, full tank is almost 2 years old. I had a p0325 the first time I started it....cleared it and got a p0325 and p0300 code the second time. I'll clear the codes and try to run it a little longer tomorrow. Also, I would like to exchange the key cylinder from the steering column that I bought at the junk yard to the one that came with the car, what kind of job will that be?
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
Hey that's great!
Sounds like you are well on your way... I would definitely get the gas changed out before making any quick judgments on the running condition... gas nowadays barely lasts a few months, let alone two years :)
Changing the lock cylinder is a piece of cake. Take the philips screws out of the column covers holding the two clam shells together then pop them off.
Insert the key and turn it to the on position.
Looking at the lock housing, there will be a small hole in it roughly facing you, about 2 inches back from the entry end. Take a pick and push in on the hole and you will feel a button depress; you can then grab the key and pull straight out and the whole lock cylinder will come out as a unit.
Install in reverse order.. just make sure the key is in and turned to on for the new cylinder before you try to slide it in.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Thanks Doug, not sure that I will have time to drain the gas this week but I will let you know how it goes if I do.
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
No problem, I'll be here if you need more help.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Thanks
Expert:  Doug replied 2 years ago.
You're welcome!