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Cat Man, I really hope you can help me with this problem. I…

Cat Man, I really hope...
Cat Man, I really hope you can help me with this problem. I have a 2011 Peterbilt with an SDP CAT engine. Was one of the last few CAT's to be installed in an on-highway truck. Anyway, after all the usual issues with the regen system, I had the dpf deleted as soon as the factory warranty was up. Engine ran great for 6 weeks till the head gasket let go. When I had it inframed it was converted to a single turbo and stripped of all unnecessary "attachments". Since then it has run like crap. Seems to be timing issues, one minute it runs good, smooth and quiet, the next shift and it has a pronounced injector rattle, almost sounds like it's trying to go into cold mode. Less than 10 hrs after an oil change, the oil is black as coal. Samples indicate high soot. Have had all injectors out and tested and all pass. Program supplier says it has to be something in the OEM chassis computer giving bad signals to the ECM. Changed every harness and sensor on the engine but still no luck. Shop doing the work has given up on it. One thing I have noticed is that they have never checked timing calibration, even after the head's been off and the sensors changed. They tell me SDP's calibrate themselves. Sounds like B.S. Any thoughts? Thanks. Ken
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Answered in 8 minutes by:
10/13/2013
Technician: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago
Cat Man
Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert
Category: Medium and Heavy Trucks
Satisfied Customers: 10,344
Experience: I am ASE Master Truck Certified.
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Hi. Thanks for asking your question and requesting me! I will try and help you out.

It's not true they calibrate themselves. Cat engine never have. However, if the cam to crank timing was off, it would set a code 22-11. If you have not set a 22-11. To be honest I would not suspect a timing issue.

Does the engine smoke at all while driving?

Does the check engine light come on while driving?

Has the fuel pressure been checked?

And lastly, exactly what all parts were changed when it was concerted to a single turbo?
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago

No smoke, no check engine lights, fuel pressure runs 95-100 psi under all conditions(have fuel press guage in dash). Fuel lines all replaced, system tested for air, all good. When starting off from a stop, engine will have a loud rattle as throttle position is increased. At a certain point the noise will stop and engine runs smooth. grab another gear and the whole thing repeats. After reaching a speed over 35 mph and maintaining hiway speed, no issues. Drop below 20 mph and it feels like engine has lost 100 hp. Start to pick up speed again and it wil be sluggish, the like the flip of a switch it kicks out 5p si more boost and pulls like crazy.


Parts removed were, CGI cooler and related plumbing, fuel lines to ARD head and oil line and related parts to IVA system

Technician: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago
Thanks for the information Ken.

I forgot to comment on one other thing you said the supplier told you. The OEM computer is not giving any signals to the engine ECM that can cause low power. That's just not possible.

There are four things I would first suspect.

The first is the fuel pressure. 95-100 is a little high. It's possible there is a return line restriction. When there is, the fuel will stay in the head too long and get hot. This will cause severe low power. Don't get me wrong, I have heard of some C15 engines runnig higher than normal pressure. But anytime I see it stay that high, I make sure there's no restriction.

Next is a cracked or leaking air cooler. It's possible it is leaking boost and can cause low power. If you have t already, I would have it pressure checked.

Next is a sensor reading inaccurately. I know you replaced them all but I always like verifying atmospheric, intake air temp, and fuel temp. These can read off and fuse low power.

If all of the things I mentioned above are all OK, I would last suspect the injectors. I know you mentioned they have been removed and tested, but to be honest, I have seen those tests be inaccurate. The best way to verify is to have the fuel rate measured on a chassis dyno. If they are worn, the fuel rate will be low. I have seen this happen to C15 engines many times after a head gasket failure.

Please reply back if you need more help or have more questions. I am happy to assist.
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Forgot to mention, I do a 2500 mile trip every week. When I leave home, truck has been shut off for 72 hrs and for the first 10-12 hours into the trip it will run reasonably well, then starts to get progressivly worse. Almost seems like there is a resistance building up somewhere and after sitting, it dissipates.
Fuel temp is a big factor in the power output. I have the CAT Messenger indash and am able to monitor more than the average truck will display. It seems to like a fuel temp of 80-100 F the best. Cooler than that causes the injector rattle to be worse, hotter and it's quieter but less power. Tried a resistor to tell ecm that fuel was always 90 deg but it made no difference. Seems as though it's the physical temp of the fuel not what the ecm thinks it is.


Atmospheric pressure was reading off. My location should be around 13.5-13.8 psi and it was fluctuating between 12.5-15 at idle. They changed the sensor and computer shows 13.6 now. Didn't make any difference in performance. The sensor they changed was marked CGI delta pressure on the wiring harness. Was told SDP does not use same atmospheric measuring as the earlier c-15 did and that it's a combination of that sensor and the sensor in the crankcase filter that determines the final reading the ecm uses.

Technician: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago
Thanks for the information Ken.

It's sounds like you have been doing some good monitoring and homework on this problem.


I would suspect a possible resistance like you mentioned. I would inspect and check all of the fuel return lines from the engine. I would also remove and check the fitting on the back of the head. The reason I say this is I have seen this before.

I would also write down all the temp and pressure readings on the engine when it is running good and compare then to after 12 hours and when it is running bad. The answer may be in those comparisons.
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok. What am I looking for with the return line fitting? I know it has been changed once for sure, it was snapped off when they replaced the head.
As far as the code 22-11, I am beginning to wonder if they haven't blocked something in the ecm so it's not seeing actual timing, only what they're program wants it to see. I say this because after the complete deletion and single conversion, I found that the low coolant sensor had been shut off as well as the high crankcase pressure warning.


The problem has to be electrical, nothing mechanical could change the way this thing switches so fast between running so good then bad and back again.

Technician: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago
Hey Ken.

I have seen injector O ring peices get stuck in them before. Especially after a head or injectors have been removed and installed.

I do think there's a way to block off something in the ECM for affect the timing. I know there is a coolant level sensor parameter that can be turned off in the ECM. But not any timing parameters.

I agree it could be electrical. If the sensors are all reading correctly, the ECM could cause this. The tough part is the only way to know if to try another ECM.

Was your original SDP ECM used and converted? Or did they change it when it was made a single turbo?
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago

The original ecm was "lost" when they sent it out . There have been a total of 3 new ecm's on this engine. The last one they tried was a brand new out of the box CAT factory ecm flashed with a personality module from an engine that had no known issues, thinking it may have been something in my customer parameters that was causing it to go stupid.Truck ran great for about 25 hours and then started doing the same thing all over again.

Technician: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago
Thanks for the information Ken.

If the problem has lasted through 3 ECM's, it's most likely not an ECM problem. Which leads me back to the fuel return being restricted or comparing sensors readings like I mentioned before. I would not suspect a customer parameter. If that was causing the problem, it should do it all the time.
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Sounds good. Give me a couple days and I'll get back to you with my findings so we can close up.

Technician: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago
Sounds good Ken. Let me know if you need more help. This question will stay open for over a month after leaving a positive rating. So if you need more help, I'll be here to assist.
Cat Man
Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert
Category: Medium and Heavy Trucks
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Cat Man. Had the truck in yesterday for some warranty work and they found the atmospheric pressure readings were bouncing up and down with engine at a dead idle. They tried a new sensor but no change in readings.


The sensor they changed was marked CGI Delta Press on the wiring harness. I know the old 6NZ's used to mount the A/P sensor on the left side of the block, close to the oil press sender. Is the SDP the same?


There are 2 sensors mounted side by side on this one. As I said, one maked delta press and the other is labeled CGI ABS Press.


The small steel lines to these sensors were removed when it was converted to a single turbo, but they left the wiring hooked up to these 2 sensors because if the wires were removed, there was no oil pressure or turbo pressure signal to the dash guages, although there was proper readings through the CAT Messenger in the dash.


Changes in altitude really affect operation on this engine. I run the Alaska highway each week and there are several elevation changes exceeding 1000 m (1600 ft) within a short distance.


Thanks

Technician: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago
Thanks for the update Ken.

The atmospheric pressure sensor for the 6NZ is different than the SDP. You will need to get the sensor for the 6NZ and install it.

Let me know if you need more help.
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Let me rephrase the question. Which of the 2 sensors is the SDP using for atmospheric pressure, the vertical one or the small square one marked ABS press?


They're both mounted on the same fitting but it appears there is no passage between the 2.


Thanks

Technician: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago
Hey Ken.

It should be the ABS. Which stands for absolute.


You have installed a 6NZ ECM correct?
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Customer reply replied 9 years ago

No, still has the 120 pin SDP ecm with a custom program that has supposedly deleted all regen functions, which is strange because it still shows dpf outlet temp on the CAT messenger. They tell me that function is supplied thru the oem system and should not effect engine operation, but if the engine can still "see" it, there must be something it's doing.

Technician: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago
I see thanks for the information.

If the ECM has 6NZ software in it. I would say the sensor needs to be changed. The ABS operates differently than the classic atmospheric pressure sensor.

Let me know if you need more help.
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