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How do I find out how old a public sign is at the beginning…

How do I find...

How do I find out how old a public sign is at the beginning of a public class 3 Road in Essex Town, Vermont. No public record

Lawyer's Assistant: Have you talked to a VT lawyer about this?

No. Because selectboard meeting is tonight

Lawyer's Assistant: What steps have you taken so far?

I researched the speed limit sign, 30 miles per hr was erected 5/3/1978, but the large sign attached to the same pole: NO SHOOTING ZONE is unavailable in public records

Lawyer's Assistant: Anything else you want the lawyer to know before I connect you?

Yes, that I’m tired of fighting with our selectboard over my right to public safety while running on this road! Bullets from hunters travel 3 miles, and has already entered a home here. Selectboard was elected by hunters, firearm facilitator hired to discuss this just kicking can down the road. From a legal stand point we moved here two years ago because of this no shooting sign posted at the beginning of this dead end road. I want to know if sign is law, or gossip! If Law, I want it ENFORCED.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Did you receive photo of Road sign?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
The name of the class 3 public dirt road is, Saxon Hill Road. It has 6 homes on it and is used by pedestrians who exercise like me, but it also allows hunters along both sides of road in wooded areas! I find sign misleading after spending over 300 thousand to move here, thinking it would be safe because of the sign! The road is 1/2-3/4 of a mile long and is dead end road!
Answered in 21 minutes by:
3/19/2018
Attorney2
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Welcome to JA and thank you for your question. I will be the Attorney that will be assisting you.

Checking with the municipality is the first step and obviously they are not being helpful. You can also request that State Department of Public Transportation assist you in obtaining this information.

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What does the local code State with regard to discharging firearms?

I am going to tell you that hunting rights are can be very political issues. It would not surprise if the municipality has the minutes of the meeting when the sign was erected and are not willing to assist you.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I Believe you!

I know from experience and it is quite irritating. This is the code I am able to pull up http://www.essex.org/firearms

Let me take a look. In the meantime the site is processing your telephone call request. Thank you for your patience.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
We have a Public records law issue in Vermont, too many exemptions! Our Secretary of State Jim Condos is aware and c

They must honor the laws even if no sign was posted:

“9.12.040 Use regulations—additional rules—signs.

A. All rules and regulations promulgated by the town manager shall be in addition to and not in conflict with rules and regulations prescribed by ordinance or otherwise by the board of selectmen.

B. Signs or devices for the implementation of rules and regulations or the specific provisions of this chapter may be erected where applicable. Failure to have such signs erected shall not diminish the effect of this ordinance, and persons informed of the regulations verbally by an enforcement officer or properly identified agent of the town who fail to desist immediately or to abate such violation shall be liable to prosecution. ((Part) of Ord. passed 8/7/78)” http://www.essex.org/vertical/sites/%7B60B9D552-E088-4553-92E3-EA2E9791E5A5%7D/uploads/Essex_Municipal_Code.pdf

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6.08.010 Discharging firearms— Prohibited area designated.

A. It is ordained by the Select board of the town of Essex that within the area of prohibition described herein, no person shall, for any reason except as provided herein, discharge a firearm.

B. The area of prohibition is bounded and described as follows: An area bounded by a line described as beginning at the intersection of the Colchester town line and the center line of Gentes Road and running southerly in said road to its intersection with the Central Vermont Railway tracks; thence continuing generally southerly in and along the center line of the railroad tracks to the Village of Essex Junction; thence proceeding easterly and then southerly along the town/village boundary line to a point 250 feet westerly of the center line of Vermont Route 15 (at a point northerly of Athens Drive); thence proceeding in a generally northerly direction parallel to and 250 feet westerly of Vermont Route 15 to Butler’s Corners, so-called, and thence 250 feet westerly of Old Stage Road from Butler’s Corners to the center line of Brigham Hill Road; thence proceeding easterly across Old Stage Road and following Colonel Page Road along its center line to its intersection with the center line of Chapin Road; thence proceeding in a straight line to its intersection with the thread of Browns River with the center line of Browns River Road as measured in a straight line; thence proceeding generally southeasterly in the thread of Browns River Road; thence turning generally easterly and following the center line of Browns River Road to the intersection of Weed Road; thence mining southeasterly and following the center line of Weed Road for 1,700 feet, more or less, thence proceeding northeasterly for 2,000 feet, more or less; thence turning and proceeding southeasterly for 800 feet, more or less; thence turning and proceeding southwesterly to the center line of Weed Road (the last three courses encompassing the residential parcels along Essex Highlands); thence turning easterly and following the center line of Weed Road to its intersection with Naylor Road; thence mining south and following the center line of Naylor Road; thence turning west, following the center line of Route 15 until it intersects with Browns River; thence following Browns River easterly until it intersects with the Jericho border; thence turning southerly along 27 the town border for 1,900 feet, more or less; thence turning and proceeding northwesterly along the division line between lands of the Deer Crossing Development and Whitcomb to the center line of Saxon Hill Road; thence proceeding in a generally southerly direction in the center line of Saxon Hill Road and the old roadbed which runs from the terminus of Saxon Hill Road to Vermont Route 117; thence proceeding easterly along Vermont Route 117 to North Williston Road; thence proceeding southerly along said North Williston Road to the Winooski River; thence proceeding generally westerly along the center line of the Winooski River to the Colchester town line; thence proceeding generally northerly in and along the Colchester/Essex town line to the point or place of beginning. C. The above-described area is designated on a plan made a part of this section and filed with the Essex town clerk. (Ord. passed 6/3/96 (part))” http://www.essex.org/vertical/sites/%7B60B9D552-E088-4553-92E3-EA2E9791E5A5%7D/uploads/Essex_Municipal_Code.pdf

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I already have 9.12.040 use regulations and Firearm Discharge 6.09 what I don’t have is when the no shooting zone went up and no one is available even in transportation dept to answer that simple question!!!!!!

Even without a sign they must enforce the law as I provided above. Here is the law again:

“9.12.040 Use regulations—additional rules—signs.

A. All rules and regulations promulgated by the town manager shall be in addition to and not in conflict with rules and regulations prescribed by ordinance or otherwise by the board of selectmen.

B. Signs or devices for the implementation of rules and regulations or the specific provisions of this chapter may be erected where applicable. Failure to have such signs erected shall not diminish the effect of this ordinance, and persons informed of the regulations verbally by an enforcement officer or properly identified agent of the town who fail to desist immediately or to abate such violation shall be liable to prosecution. ((Part) of Ord. passed 8/7/78)” http://www.essex.org/vertical/sites/%7B60B9D552-E088-4553-92E3-EA2E9791E5A5%7D/uploads/Essex_Municipal_Code.pdf

You should be receiving a telephone call. That Attorney will be able to further assist you. Thank you.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
If you can’t answer this simple question for me, then I do not want to purchase this advice that I already have. Thank you anyway

There is nothing simple about knowing when a sign was installed if the public records are missing. That being said the town has a duty to enforce the law with or without a sign.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
They are not enforcing it, as the town is giving me the run around, sending me from one person to the next, saying they will look into it! The bot***** *****ne is the firearm discharge are is smack down the middle of Saxon Hill Road and I researched that 6 months after moving here because of the sign at the beginning of the road, that reads: No Shooting Zone. It’s not my fault that i followed a road sign thinking it was an enforced law, especially on same pole as 30 speed limit sign. The meeting is in one hour!
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
What’s your email, I’ll send you photo of the sign at beginning of road

Did you receive the telephone call?

You would need to search all public meeting records to see when the town agreed to have the sign posted.

They must enforce the law or you will report them to the State Attorney General. You can also file a lawsuit if you suffer any damages as a result of the failure to enforce the law.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
are you saying the sign: No Shooting Zone is a Law,or the fact they are not providing me the information that it was erected as law?

I am saying that by installing the sign a determination was made that this was a non shooting zone.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Thank you! But police chief told me oh that sign is just for the land on the very beginning of this road! I’m getting the run around! Do you want a picture of the legal looking sign? It looks like a sign at the beginning of any dead end road with speed limit ,and maybe sign that says dead end at beginning of class 3 Road!
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
You are very helpful, by the way! I have to get ready to go soon

I see the link you attached. The sign is very clear. You stated you are familiar with the code I provided that sets out the areas where shooting is prohibited.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I have a copy of the same. What do I tell the selectboard tonight, when all I ever get is... we’ll look into it.1. Here is the sign, 2. If this sign is gossip or law, 3. If it’s law, enforce it! Should I threaten attorney general if I don’t get answer?

I always suggest that if my clients are not satisfied with the response that they will be contacting the AG.

Let them prove to you that your street is not covered by either the sign or the code.

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Customer reply replied 24 days ago
The town responded and said, no record was found on who put sign up and when! They said the fire arm discharge boundary goes right down the center of Saxon Hill Road in the code. They removed the sign today and said no one authorized it to be erected, so they took it down! VT lawyers say if hunters too close to the road you run on, then run for selectboard to replace pro hunters elected on present board. Secretary of VT attorney general says: we don’t get involved with municipalities and their issues. I complained to Town Manager to put sign back up! Any suggestions?
Customer reply replied 24 days ago
I’ll wait for same lawyer I had before!
You would be reporting corruption to the AG. If they are unwilling to assist you may wish to set up a consultation with a local land use attorney.
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Customer reply replied 24 days ago
I’m upset because all I wanted was the sign to be enforced! The sign they said was not even for the entire length of the road and they said you knew that from police Chief. That police chief left because firearm issue would ruin his career and now we have new Chief. I told old chief that no shooting zone sign at beginning of Saxon Hill Road was an assumption that it was for entire 3/4 mile of road, that we spent over 300 thousand on a house near here, because of this damn sign! We wouldn’t have moved here if sign indicated only 50 yards of road!!
Customer reply replied 24 days ago
I wanted to make town accountable for providing public safety on this public class 3 Road, and now, today the sign is gone!!!
Customer reply replied 24 days ago
They say the no shooting zone sign was unauthorized
Customer reply replied 24 days ago
No lawyer in VT wants to help me
You can check with the State Bar Association for an Attorney that will assist you.
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Customer reply replied 24 days ago
Well, I’ve kind of given up at this point because rifle season where the bullet travels 3 miles or more won’t start here until November, so can I request you at that time!! I’m going to have my dog bark every 300 yards or so while running and contact you if I’m still alive!
Customer reply replied 24 days ago
The town makes me feel that I have absolutely no rights and if I don’t like it move!
I know it is very frustrating. Local politics is awful. You better still be alive. Of course you can request me.
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Customer reply replied 24 days ago
Thank you! ***** 22, 2017 a runner was running on a similar dirt road just outside Buffalo, NY when a hunter mistook her for a deer and shot her. Her 2 dogs ran to house and she died on way to hospital. She ran over 60 marathons! On same day, an hour earlier in Hopkington, NH woman was shot because hunter was pointing rifle in direction of public dirt road at deer, but didn’t see her biking on road just behind deer! Her body full of shrapnel!

You are most welcome.

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