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Keep turns over but won't start. Ads and fuel pump relays

don't click when key is...
Keep turns over but won't start. Ads and fuel pump relays don't click when key is turned to on position. Can jump fuel pump relay and get fuel pump to turn on. Tcm relay does click on key turn.
JA: Can you turn the steering wheel at all? And what about the key? Is it worn or damaged?
Customer: Yes I can turn the wheel and key. The engine turns over just won't fire
JA: What is the model/year of your Jeep?
Customer: 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee limited v8 4.7
JA: Are you fixing your Grand Cherokee yourself? What have you tried so far?
Customer: Fuel pump and ads relays won't click when key is turned on. TCm does click. Jump out pins 30 and 87 fuel pump turns on. Volt and gas gauges not working either. Changed crankshaft sensor today
JA: Anything else you want the mechanic to know before I connect you?
Customer: Negative
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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Where is that located. Inside car or out?

it says behind the left side of the dash so that would be inside

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Do you want me to use test light or multi meter

meter or pull it out and look at it

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well is it good or not?

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Fuse is good going to grab multi meter
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Just checked fuse 12 has almost 12 volts. Battery is pretty dead from trying to start earlier. Key must be in on position to have 12 v at fuse 22. Also when key is on has just below 12 volts on pin 85 on relay
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Not 22 I meant fuse 12
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Sorry I'm in Hawaii so I'm sure we have a big time difference

and you are getting 12 volts at 30 on the asd and fuel pump relay?

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
on the asd and no on the fuel pump
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Yesterday I jumped pin 87 and 30 on the fuel pump yesterday and could hear the fuel pump turn on

ok jump 30 to 87 on the asd relay, leave the fuel pump relay in.

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Am I listening for the relay on the fuel pump to click or what am I looking for once I do that? Engine to start? Fuel to bar?

pump to kick on. key on also

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Ok so I tried that Nd nothing happend. I pulled out fuel pump relay put meter on it. Key off
85. -.03
86. .00
87. -.03
30. .00
Key on
85. 13.25
86 .00
87 -.03
30. .00
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Asd key on
30. 13.25
85. 13-25
87. -.01
86. .00

you need 12vdc at 30 at all times on the fuel pump relay.

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asd looks good. but again even with key off you should have 12vdc at 30 on the asd also

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Scratch all that. Fuse 24 had popped outside when I tried to jump fuel pump no reads
Key off
30. 13
87. -.03
86. .00
85. .0
Key on
30. 13
87. -.02
86. .0
85. 13
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Asd
Key on
30 13
87 -.03
85 13
86. .0
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Since fuse is fixed want me to jump out 30&87 on asd

yes

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Jumped 30&87 nothing happens on asd
Jumped 30&87 on fuel pump
Fuel pump turned on
Both with key on

ok. let me look at a diagram

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Changed crankshaft sensor yesterday
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
I need to check pins 3 drk Bly/yel. And 19 brown yellow with key on and see if im getting 12v coming out of pcm with key on?

yes

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let me see if i can get you a pinout of the connector

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Or the one behind it on the firewall
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Not getting any voltage off either of those pins
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
if that's not getting power the wouldn't power the asd which wouldn't power the fuel pump

correct. did you have the key on?

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
But let me double check
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
key was on. Checked and no power to those pins. Does that mean pcm is fried inside.? New pcm or could a sensor cause that to not send power. What's the next step in detail

when the key is turned on, the pcm momentarily grounds the circuit and sends voltage to the fuel pump relay for prime. then shuts it off, until the engine is started. if you arent getting that momentary voltage out of 19(back probing I hope), then the computer is bad. you cant do it yourself un less you have the meter positioned to watch it from inside the jeep as you turn the key on

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
I unplugged the plug and set it on the pins. I will pull it off again and have girlfriend turn key while I have it on pins Thai time.

do not unplug the connector, how you going to tell if anything is coming out of the pcm?

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
im putting meter directly to pin coming off of pcm. It shows 0 when the key is turned on then shows .25 to .3 when vehicle is turning over. Are you saying plug it back into pcm and hook meter to backside where wire is on plug

do you not have three different connector on the pcm?

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
I do. I unplugged the grey one and put meter on plug 19 and 3. Had girlfriend turn key got 0 voltage
Got .25 to .3 when vehicle was turning over

bad computer

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im getting out of here(my shop), ill be back on in a while

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Well now that I took the pcm out I was thinking anyway it could be the camshaft sensor?
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Does the co
Outer use those to check positions of cam cans crank then if it gets the signal send power to asd?
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Does the pcm use the crank shaft and cam shaft to get info then power on the asd after it receives that info?

yes

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Think I should put pressure and change cam shaft
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Pcm back in and Check camshaft

no. its not going to matter ...the computer isnt putting out voltage

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
pins 19 and 3 would show voltage going out even if plug wasn't in telling computer cam and crank are ok. Do I need to plug it back in and alligators clip 19and 3 and see if computer is sending signal to asd.
Or computer would send power to asd regardless?
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
I'm saying will the computer only put out voltage to the asd once it has received ok signals from crankshaft and cam sensors?

Ill let another tech help you out. good luck.

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Robert R
Robert R, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Jeep
Satisfied Customers: 4,574
Experience: ASE Master Certified, Jeep Certified
Verified

Hello, welcome and thanks for asking your question. My name is*****'m a Certified Auto Technician with 30+ years experience. I will do my best to assist you. please keep in mind that I may need to ask questions of you before I can answer. When you reply please feel free to add as much detailed information as possible pertaining to your concern.

I think I can help but I want to start from the beginning. Plug everything back in and try to start it, let me know what happens.

Please answer following questions:

Is the check engine light on when you first turn on the key?

If so, what does the check engine light do while cranking the engine?

Next, turn on the key and leave it on for at least a minute without trying to start it. Look at the odometer on the instrument cluster. Let me know what is displayed. Is it showing the milage normally? Does the mileage display begin to flash after a while then display a "NO BUS" message?

Next, I need to know if the vehicle has been scanned for codes. If so please post all codes retrieved here.

If not let me know and I'll give you additional things to check...

Keep me posted...

Thank you,

Robert

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Ok. It's going to take me a few to put pressure back in
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
It's going to take me a few to put pcm back in

Ok, take your time. Post a reply when ready. If I happen to log off, I'll get back with you in the morning. It's 11:11 here, I usually log off around 12:00 (Day job in the morning - lol).

Thank you,

Robert

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
No check engine light on when turn key. Takes about 15 seconds for it to turn on.
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
After a minute I have regular mileage displayed. Check engine light. Check gauges light. a key with a circle and line. Gas light and seat belt light

Ok, as long as the CEL does come on and there is not a No Bus message it means that the PCM is awake and online.

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Next, I need to know if the vehicle has been scanned for codes. If so please post all codes retrieved here.

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
Did you read everything the last guy and I talked about

I went through most of it but there was a lot of confusion, this is why I wanted to start over...

Thanks for that pic, it made me pay attention to your last post about the "Key with a Slash".

This is the indicator that is telling you one of two things. Either an "Unprogrammed" or incorrect key is being used in attempt to start the vehicle OR there is a failure with the Immobilizer System.

Couple of questions:

Do you have a second key available?

Is the key being used a "Grey Headed" key?

Have you tried disconnecting the battery at any time during this diagnostic process?

Keep me posted...

Thank you,

Robert

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
These are the keys I have. The key on the left isn't cut and the buttons don't do anything when you hit theme. Haven't checked fabs battery. Two keys on the right both fit in ignition.
Yes the car battery has been disconnected. The last guy was pretty sure it was the pcm. So I disconnected battery and took pcm out
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
I just bought it as a project. And here I am

The Grey key with the "Jeep" logo should be the key that should start the engine, The other key on the same key ring "MAY" start the engine IF it is programmed to the vehicle. The key that is not cut WILL NOT work with this vehicle so unless you just want a key for the door, don't get this key cut.

Which key was in the ignition when you took the pic showing the security light (key with a slash)?

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At this point, our diagnostics MUST steer towards fixing the Immobilizer issue. If you are using the grey key and still have the security light on then the next step MUST be to scan with a factory scan tool (DRBIII) to see what codes are stored in the PCM AND SKIM Module (Sentry Key Immobilizer Module). Once I know what codes are stored in these modules I'll know what to do next...

Keep me posted and let me know if you have any additional questions...

Thank you,

Robert

I also need to let you know that my responses may be delayed because I may be helping another customer, or I may be temporarily offline. Your understanding is greatly appreciated. It's 12:00, signing off, I'll respond as soon as I'm online. Thank you.

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
1:
If I unplug the grey plug on the pcm and check for voltage out of pin 19 and 3 and the. Key to on position I'm getting no voltage.
(Note. I can check with meter and other pins are getting voltage.)
2:
The TCM relay does click when grey plug from pcm is plug in and car is in on position
3:
Doesn't SKIM tell pcm that key is ok and power ASD relay thus Powering Fuel Pump relay in turn priming the fuel rails?
Customer reply replied 6 months ago
4.
Does the PCM check camshaft and crankshaft sensor. Then tell itself to send power to ASD?
5.
I can pull the key out of the ignition when key is turned all the way back and in lock and on postion. (I know that's not normal)
6:
With out hooking up a computer for a zillion dollars I don't have. Would you lean towards the SKIM and ignition system. Since the s***** *****ght is on

1 - This test is really not valid when the fuel system is disabled due to the Immobilizer. Also these wires will only be live for a few seconds when INITIALLY turning on the key. We need a Scan to be able to tell what the issue is with the immobilizer first. Also, since those two wires are actually the control circuits for the ASD and Fuel Pump Relays, the PCM would ground these wires. Pobably better to test these circuits on the relay side of the circuit (Cavity 86 at the relay connectors).

2 - That is fine, at least we know at this time that the TCM relay is properly being controlled.

3 - Correct, The way this works is when you insert the key and turn it to the run position, the skim checks to be sure it is a valid key. If valid key, the skim sends the "Ok to start" signal to the PCM. The PCM at that time enables the fuel and ignition system and allows the vehicle to start. Since the key with slash is illuminated it is not enabling the fuel system thus any testing as you are trying to perform will be invalid.

4 - No, When you turn on the key initially the PCM grounds the ASD and Fuel Pump relay for a few seconds to prime the fuel system. When you crank the engine the PCM also grounds these relays, it doesn't rely on the cam/crank sensors to turn on ASD and Fuel Pump relays. It basically sees the start signal from the ignition switch and skim and turns on the relays at that point.

5 - Your key or ignition lock cylinder or both may be worn out allowing the key to come out in these positions.

6 - I'm leaning towards a SKIM issue but unfortunately with this system you have NO CHOICE but to visit the dealer for the repair. The SKIM Module and PCM are "Married" to each other and this process MUST be performed at a dealer using a dealer scan tool. Also when replacing the SKIM (if this happens to be the cause) you must reprogram the keys to the vehicle and this also requires a dealer scan tool. Definitely not a zillion dollars to do this. Labor for skim and key programming is normally around $100 to $150, this is in addition to the cost of the SKIM module and labor for replacement of this module if you don't do it yourself.

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Customer reply replied 6 months ago
I will get it scanned and let you know codes asap

sounds good.

Thank you,

Robert

Robert R
Robert R, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Jeep
Satisfied Customers: 4,574
Experience: ASE Master Certified, Jeep Certified
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