I sold my horse on Feb 3, 2011. I agreed with the buyer that they could have a post-purchase evaluation done and that if

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Customer: I sold my horse on Feb 3, 2011. I agreed with the buyer that they could have a post-purchase evaluation done and that if the vet found something that would cause the horse to not be sound for his intended purpose, he could return the horse but that I didn't warrant the horses conformation. The report from a physical examination and lameness evaluation done by the new owners vet states the following: -Grade 2/5 lame in the right front limb -Sensitive to hooftesters over the heels of both front feet -Fleaxion test of all four limbs were unremarkable -Palaption of his joints was unremarkable -Right front foot smaller than left fore and set at a steeper angle, bordering on club footed. Report from Radiographs of the right front foot: -Small spur of the navicular bone -Coffin bone has rotated 9 degrees and has positive palmar angle 6 degrees The horse never showed any signs of lameness while I owned him, and none of his previous vets ever suspected or diagnosed him as lame or having club foot. I also spoke to the lady who owned him before me and she said that he had always been in perfect condition and released vet records to me. He is a trail horse and that is his only intended use. The new owners farrier removed his shoes and trimmed him two days before this exam took place. Since the horse had never shown signs of pain or lameness in the past I am concerned. I want to make sure this isn't something that he has acquired while he has been with his new owners. I have spoken with my vet and he has given me his opinion but I wanted a 2nd opinion because my vet and the new owners vet do not agree. If you could, please explain this to me. My main questions are: -What could this be caused from? -How long has he had it and how can you tell? -Could the new owners/farrier cause it? -Can he still be used as a trail horse? The link below is the x-rays the vet took: http://antechimagingservices.iweb-1.com/WebAccess/Default.ashx?RequestClass=Integrator&operation=imagePresentatio n&autoEndSession=true&securityId=ff0398d88a384e42ac78090b9000f487&studyUid=2.16.840.1.114440.1.3.5.433.1768.20120209.105419387.10134406

http://antechimagingservices.iweb-1.com/WebAccess/Default.ashx?RequestClass=Integrator&operation=imagePresentation&autoEndSession=true&securityId=ff0398d88a384e42ac78090b9000f487&studyUid=2.16.840.1.114440.1.3.5.433.1768.20120209.105419387.10134406
Answered by Dr. A Braha in 1 hour 11 years ago
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Dr. A Braha
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482 satisfied customers

Specialities include: Horse Veterinary, Large Animal Veterinary, Small Animal Veterinary


Dr. Braha : Thank you for posting your question I am just going to take a look at the radiographs and I will provide you with my opinion once I am finished.
JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- : Great! Thank you. Please let me know if you need additional information.
Dr. Braha :

You are most certainly welcome :) Could I actually ask a favour of you. Would you mind reposting the URL's into the chat screen I am having trouble accessing the entire address from the original question.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

sure. Give me a minute to pull it up please.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

htt p://antechimagingservices.iweb-1.com/WebAccess/Default.ashx?RequestClass=Integrator&operation=imagePresentation&autoEndSession=true&securityId=ff0398d88a384e42ac78090b9000f487&studyUid=2.16.840.1.114440.1.3.5.433.1768.20120209.105419387.10134406

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

Hopefully that one will work.

Dr. Braha :

Thank you that link worked!

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

Great!!! :)

Dr. Braha :

Is there a second link as well or just the first link?

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

Just the first link. There should be 3 pictures.

Dr. Braha :

They are not labeled as to which foot is being radiograph but I will assume these are images sent over by the Purchasers Vet of the right forelimb. Did they take any additional views of the right front foot to your knowledge asides from these three ? (for example a view called a 'skyline' view is missing from the series to be complete).

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

Not that I know of. That is all that they sent me.

Dr. Braha :

Alright thank you for all the additional information. Give me some time to take a careful look over what we have here and I will be in touch with you shortly.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

Thank you very much!!!!

Dr. Braha :

Thanks for your pateince. The Vet performing the prepurchase exam states that there is a grade 2/5 lameness in the right forelimb. This could have been present all along as many owners would not be able to pick up a grade 2/5 lameness. It could also have been a result of the feet being newly trimmed that cause Denver to have a mild lameness picked up by the practitioner. If it remains consistent a few weeks down the road then the lameness is likely not a result of the trimming and may be due to "caudal heel pain syndrome" basically pain originating from structures in the back of the horses heel. The fact that the horse was sensitive over the heel region at the time of examination also could be related to both farrier or caudal heel pain syndrome. If the horse was trimmed at a different angle than he was used to this could place temporary excess strain on the structures at the back of the heel causing a positive response to the placement of the hoof testers. Now in terms of the radiograph we have two views. One view is looking at the leg from the side and the other view is looking at the leg from front to back. There are two images out of the three images you provided looking at the foot from front to back. One of these images is under exposed ( meaning too white) and can not be used to make any diagnosis conclusions. On the other image although better I am still not seeing very good detail. This may be due to the x-ray having been converted into a jpeg from its original DICOM version. On this view here I am looking for spurs coming off of the flexor surface of the navicular bone where the deep digital flexor runs over. From these images its very difficult to determine if there is a spur or not. Normally I should see a structure called synovial invaginations and I can't even make these out on the radiograph. If there are spurs at this location, no this would not have been caused by the farrier and it would have been developing over some time (age related changes). Many sound horses can have changes to their navicular bone. In some horses this can be significant and other times has no impact on the horse. This is likely since on radiographs we can only see 50% of the structures that being bone. There are many important soft tissue structures in that area that can not be assess with radiographs. On the view from the side the region where the impar ligament attaches to the navicular bone may be subjectively larger than normal and perhaps this is what the other Veterinarian is referring to as a spur. Again this would not be a recent change.

Dr. Braha :

I went over the image from the side and did my own measuring of the angles ( sorry it took so long I was trying to figure out how to use their system so I could make my own measurements!). The results are as follows:

Dr. Braha :

The first measurement I did was to determine if there was distal displacement of the coffin bone. Normal horses have a measurement of 13-20mm and he came in at 16.6mm so he has no distal displacement of the coffin bone.

Dr. Braha :

The second measurement was to determine palmar rotation:

Dr. Braha :

Normal horses should have less than a 4 degree angle.

Dr. Braha :

He came in at about 5.9 degrees I will probably just take a re-measurement of that to be sure now that I can work the measuring angles on their system better given me one more moment.

Dr. Braha :

Going back and measuring I am getting less than 4 degree so there is no rotation or displacement of the coffin bone.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

Wow! That is great!!!

Dr. Braha :

If anything he has evidence of navicular heel pain based on the findings from the Vet (lameness and pain with hoof testers)

Dr. Braha :

I am not sure if your own Vet could see any spurs but I am having a hard time making them out if present on the radiographs you provided.

Dr. Braha :

Is he a quarter horse by any chance?

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

My personal vet said that he did not agree with the findings of a bone spur.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

He is a registered paint but is pretty much 50% paint 50% quarter.

Dr. Braha :

He is the right breed for caudal heel pain almost all of the quarter horse breeds eventually seem to develop issues in their heels. Its hard to tell on those radiographs in regards XXXXX XXXXX spur maybe they can be seen on the DICOM version. However if he is sound regardless of the presence of the spurs that makes the findings on radiographs less significant. The question is on the day of the exam was he sensitive due to recent farrier work or has he had heel pain for some time.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

Exactly! That was our concern being that he never showed any of these signs before.

Dr. Braha :

It is possible he had a grade 2.5 lameness while you had him especially if he was used for trail it may never have been too pronounced to be noticed from anyone asides from a Vet fluent in detecting lameness.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

So you are saying that you don't see any rotation or displacement of the coffin bone. Correct?

Dr. Braha :

That is correct by just looking at the foot I can see why it may appear the coffin bone is tipped but if you measure out the angles all the values are within the normal reference ranges.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

So in your opinion is this horse sound for trail riding? (once his sensitivity is gone of course)

Dr. Braha :

The real determination will be to determine if the grade 2/5 lameness is still present in a week from now once the horse has time to adjust to the trimming. If he does still have lameness at that time caudal heel pain is more likely the culprit. This is a degenerative process (basically age related changes) but can be managed if it ever does prove to interfere with the horses intended use.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

What kind of corrective treatment do you recommend? Shoes, boots, ect?

Dr. Braha :

With caudal heel pain we recommend keeping the heel long and toe short to encourage breakover and not put excess strain on the back of the heel. Shoes are not always necessary but some horses do better in plain shoes setting them slightly behind the toe to again encourage break over and prevent excess strain in the heel region. Others eventually may require steroid injections directly into the coffin joint and the occasional Bute. Some horses have severe cases and with these horses if they are refractory to all other forms of treatment we perform a procedure called denerving to take away pain sensation coming from the foot.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

Ok. Thank you very much! I am glad that you took the time to measure the x-rays and to explain this to me in such great detail.

Dr. Braha :

You are most certainly welcome it is my pleasure to help! If you have any other questions in the coming days this page will stay open in a question and answer format after you press the accept button and we can communicate at any time for no additional charge.

JACUSTOMER-q6js6u90- :

That is great! I am sure something else will come up. Again, thank you so much!!!!!!

Dr. Braha :

I always enjoy a good question :)

Customer
Hi Dr. Braha.
I am sorry to bother you again so soon but I have another question.

The buyer of my horse is claiming that his farrier did not cause the current problem lameness that Denver is experiencing and is standing behind his vet's findings of a shited coffin bone, and is wanting to return Denver to me. Wether or not the farrier caused the lameness is unknown to me. The horse is 5 hours away from where I live so I have not been able to see him or have a vet of my own examine him. All I have been provided with is a letter from the vet and the x-rays I provided you.

I love this horse and will gladly take him back. BUT, I am fearful that I will let the new owner return Denver to me in exchange for a full refund and then my vet tell me that the 2/5 lameness was indeed caused by the new owner's farrier or something else (collic, founder, trama, ect...) during the time the new owner has had him; leaving me with an unknown amount of vet/farrier bills.

In your opinion, how can I handle this situation?

I welcome your additional questions

 

If the lameness that was picked up on by the Veterinarian was caused from the horse adjusting to the change in angles of his feet then the lameness will not be permanent. It is equivalent to a person breaking in new shoes anytime angles are changed in the feet and takes a few days to adjust. I don't feel that anything permanent will have occurred based on the history from the time he was sold until present. If he did have a recent episode of founder since leaving the farm he would have been much more severely lame (which I am sure the new buyers would have immediately brought to your attention) and generally both front feet are affected not just one. If he remains grade 2/5 lame it is most likely an underlying condition that has been brewing prior to the sale that has never posed a problem while riding in the past. The pain elicited in the heel region upon placement of the hoof testers would support this.

 

I have to head out shortly but when I return I will explain to you how we calculate the angles and show you the exact measurements on the x-ray provided. If anything you should think of the situation such that you now have relieved a free vet exam on the buyers expense. You now have inside information that has alerted you to problems that may arise in the future and you can take preventative per cautions to slow down the continual onset of changes that are taking place inside the foot.

Dr. Braha40955.0637472222
Customer
Thank you Dr. Braha. The buyer says that the things they are reffering to on the x-rays are not viewable on the x-rays that were sent to me. I'm not sure why they would send me unproper documentation and request that my vet review it??? Regardless, I would very much appreciate it if you explain to me how you calculate the angles so I can better understand. Also, how can you tell if a horse has been trimmed to short? Thank You!!!!

I figured that would be the case as the quality on those x-rays we had access to were of lower quality for assessing mild changes accurately. I have an image of the angles for you to review but the system is being difficult in allowing me to upload images. I will try again in the morning and we can go from there. Looking at the x-ray viewing the foot from the side we can see how much toe is present in front of the coffin bone (larger triangular shaped bone) this helps us to determine how much toe we need to keep and how much we can safely take away gradually to shorten the toe providing for better break over and less stress on the back of the foot. In his case he still has an appropriate amount of toe. graphic

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