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2007 Expedition, no crank, no start, only pats light on

Customer Question
2007 Expedition Mechanic's Assistant:...

2007 Expedition

Mechanic's Assistant: Are you fixing your Expedition yourself? What have you tried so far?

No crank, no start, only pats light on dash, windows work, radio works, running lights work, new battery. If I remove the ground and short the cables to discharge, all is fine for about an hour, then back to same thing again

Mechanic's Assistant: Have you checked the fuses? The dashboard bulbs?

All works perfect after discharging the system

Mechanic's Assistant: Anything else you want the mechanic to know before I connect you?

Not that I can think of

Submitted: 1 month ago.Category: Ford
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Answered in 31 minutes by:
12/31/2017
Ford Mechanic: 6Bucs, Ford Senior Master replied 1 month ago
6Bucs
6Bucs, Ford Senior Master
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 1,000
Experience: Ford senior master tech, 18 years experience.
Verified
Hello and thanks for your question. My name is James. Is the PATS light blinking rapidly when you try to start it? Do you have a second key to try?
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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
pats light is blinking normally
one key, one remote only
Ford Mechanic: 6Bucs, Ford Senior Master replied 1 month ago
Do you have a test light or a voltmeter for testing?
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Ford Mechanic: 6Bucs, Ford Senior Master replied 1 month ago
do you have the owners manual?
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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I have test light, VOM, Scan tool, no owners manual
Ford Mechanic: 6Bucs, Ford Senior Master replied 1 month ago
Alright. I’m getting some diagrams pulled up. Are the battery cables clean and tight? No corrosion noticed?
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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Not bad, new battery, bright headlights...
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
VERY ODDI had swapped the Run/start relay and the PCM relay with the trailer tow/battery charge relay about two hours ago... no change
as you instructed, I just swapped the Blower relay with the starter relay, which I had not tried before, still no change, however when I once again swapped the run/start relay, it started! I swapped them back and it still started...
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
just tried it again, after waiting 5 min...
no start again...
swapped all relays, still no start
Ford Mechanic: 6Bucs, Ford Senior Master replied 1 month ago
Ok. It sounds like the problem may be intermittent then. Also sometimes we find poor connector pin fit, so look in the cavities for the relays and make sure none of the wire terminals appear to be spread out or pushed in at all. Also check the relays for any brown, black, or burn marks on the terminals. If the problem starts occurring again, you’ll need to have an assistant attempt to start the engine while you check for power st the smaller red wire bolted to the starter on the passenger side of the vehicle. It’s difficult to get to without a hoist and you may need to use the jack to raise the right front of the truck up to get under there. If you have power at the starter terminal when attempting to crank the engine but the starter is not engaging, replace the starter.
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Ford Mechanic: 6Bucs, Ford Senior Master replied 1 month ago
IF you have an assistant now, have them attempt to start the engine while you touch the starter relay with your hand. See if you can feel the relay click
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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I dont think the starter is the problem, As there are no dash lights when there is a no crank issue, all the relays look good, all the contacts appear to be good.
Do you know if all of the feed sides (pin 85) should have positive voltage waiting for the relay to enable, I can check to see if they all have power?
Ford Mechanic: 6Bucs, Ford Senior Master replied 1 month ago

I apologize, I misread the part about the dash lights. ONLY the pats light comes on. Got it.

Ok, this may indicate an issue with the instrument cluster or body control module as well then. Pin 30 is hot at all times. Pin 87 sends power to the starter solenoid. Pin 85 should have power to it when the key is turned to the start position.

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
starter relay, key on, does not have power on 85, what feeds that?
Ford Mechanic: 6Bucs, Ford Senior Master replied 1 month ago
Key needs to be in the start/crank position. Not the run position.
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Ford Mechanic: 6Bucs, Ford Senior Master replied 1 month ago
It’s fed power through the ignition switch
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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
it is live in start position...
still no change...
Wriggled all relays, cables going into that panel...
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
just applied power to pin 87 of starter relay, with key on, starter engaged, no ignition though.
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
also applied power to pin 87 of the other two relays, individually, no change either
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
do you have any other ideas?
it is still doing the same thing...
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago
David Craig
David Craig, Auto Mechanic
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 4,756
Experience: owner/mechanic at 3D Automotive
Verified

Hi I'm David, so when you remove the starter relay you have power in slot 30 and when you jump power from 30 to 87 the starter ranks. did you happen to check for power on 86?

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I think it is way before getting to that circuit because there are no lights in the dash showing the system is ready for ignition.
Dash is totally dark other than flashing normally PATs light.
I can check that pin if you believe it is relevant.
It is intermittent for sure. the weird part is, Why does it come back to life if i drain the charge in the system. My thinking if it is a broken connection or wire, it would still be broken...
This happened after I changed two idler pulleys, and the tensioner pully, Im thinking I may have broken a connection somewhere. I am trying to trace the wiring diagram, for these circuits, but Ford isnt making it easy... LOL
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

let make sure that the pcm is controlling the starter relay. let me pull up a wiring diagram

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Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

ok, I see that you had no power on slot 85 with the key held in the start position. is that correct?

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Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

Have you checked fuse 27 in the smart junction box behind the right kick panel?

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
in start position, there was power
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

ok. good

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
i have checked all fuses with test light
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
in BJB & SJB
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

ok, we are missing the starter relay control from the PCM. you need to do a continuity test of the wire from slot 86 of the relay to the ECM connector C175B position 34

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Even though I have power on that pin in the start positioni have to run into town for a bit, i will be back shortly
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

yes, because the ignition switch is supplying the power to 85, not the pcm

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Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

ill be on all day

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
back at it...isnt 86 ground on the coil side of the relay?
which of the connectors is B passenger or driver side
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

standby please

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
found the diagram, if that is the only wire on that circuit, it must be good because the PCM power relay energizes ok
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

is that wire yellow? it has nothing to do with the pcm power relay energizing. its a totally different function. it controls the ground side of the coil in the starter relay

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
Starter Relay pin 86 to C175b pin 34?
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

yes

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
continuity good on that
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

when you try to start it does the theft light go out?

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
no change in theft light
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

so it stays on when trying to start?

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
I think it always did?
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
no change in flashing speed either
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
not sure if it always stayed on, guess I never payed that much attention
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

ok, when try to start the engine the theft light needs to go out. if not then PATS has you locked out. Do you have another key?

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Customer reply replied 1 month ago
did you see the earlier part, where I said that if I disconnect the battery, and drain the risidual charge, and reconnect the pattery
headlights flash once, and the car can start...
if left alone, goes back to no start again
Customer reply replied 1 month ago
only one key and one remote
Ford Mechanic: David Craig, Auto Mechanic replied 1 month ago

must have missed that part. I'm not sure on this one then I will open this up to the others to chime in. please do not reply back or it will take the question back off the board.

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Ford Mechanic: A. Penland, Ford Senior Master Technician, ASE replied 1 month ago
A. Penland
A. Penland, Ford Senior Master Technician, ASE
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 6,723
Experience: ASE Master Certified, ASE Advanced Gasoline Engine Performance
Verified

Can you give me the VIN#?
I want to check Fords database for any technician bulletins on this problem from Ford.

I think you have a module that is failing.

Do you have any way yo scan all the vehicles modules for trouble codes? Not just the PCM (Engine Computer).

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