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Reggie Whiddon
Reggie Whiddon,
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 166
Experience:  Lead tech at river regions auto
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I have the exact symptoms as the thread above and I've

Customer Question

I have the exact symptoms as the thread above and I've reached the exact same point as the OP. I've followed the steps above and each result is exactly the same the OP. At this point, I don't I have power at #10 of the neutral safety switch. What's the next step?
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Ford
Expert:  George H. replied 1 year ago.

Hello I will help you with your question,

Do you still need help with this?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
please
Expert:  George H. replied 1 year ago.

I don't get to see what you are seeing, can you explain or link to the thread you asked about?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Take a look at this link. I'm having the exact same issue and I'm at the exact same point where the thread endshttp://my.justanswer.com/question/guest/879294c773234c9080a7b8bc6c188093#re.v/446/
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Each one of his results matches mine
Expert:  George H. replied 1 year ago.

I don't have enough information to help you with this so I will OPT OUT and another expert will pick up your question.

Sorry I could not help

Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

hello, I to cannot see the link you are talking about but if you would explain your problem to me I would love to help you.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
See link belowhttp://my.justanswer.com/question/guest/879294c773234c9080a7b8bc6c188093#re.v/446/Is there any way to check what the rest of the thread was?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Might be easier than explaining the whole thing again
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

Sir please forgive me in that I cannot see any of this my apologies for that I do not have the ability to view that. I gather that you have some sort of electrical issue and if so that is my specialty.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Reggie - if you can't view the link I attached, I need someone who can. It was a very long thread and I've gone through the entire process. I just need to know the ending and I don't want to watch the entire movie again :)
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Here are the highlights:2003 Ford Expedition 5.4 Eddie Bauer.
No crank, no start
Can jump the starter if I apply power to the solenoid
Checked starter relay slot. No power at 85 or 86. Power at 30. Fuse 102 is fine
Power at ignition when key is turned.
Don't think there's power at #10 or #12 at neutral safety switch.
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

Very well sir, I will opt out and wish you good luck.

Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

I apologize you have given me the info hold on I will break this down for you

Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

Okay I have looked at my notes, It appears we have had this alot. And sir I understand how aggravating it can be when you have a problem and you have to start over and if you still want to find someone who can view that link just say so and i will opt out again. I will say this when it want crank does your odometer display this where the mileage would be -------------

If so your problem may be where we have had a number of them. The central junction box it burns out and will not give the power to the pcm that comes from the pcm relay, I mostly fix it by externally wiring in a relay for the pcm. Again I hate I cant see the link and completely understand your frustration. Let me know

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok. Explain the process of wiring an external relay for the pcm. I'll give it a shot in the morning. By the way, everything else works. Lights come on, odometer comes on, even the door ajar and other error message cycle through. Just nothing happens when I turn the key. The instrument cluster and radio doesn't dim like it would on a normal start
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
My central junction box did quit a couple of years ago. The fuel pump relay (the non-serviceable one) quit and I changed the junction box
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

Okay what happens is the circuitry inside the box that sends the power from the pcm relay burns out. The process goes like this you would purchase an accessory relay i use the 20amp version. All the parts stores have them. Also you will get the socket for the relay it will have about 6 inches of wire. There are four wires actually 3 we would worry about. We would cut the wires as they went into your box and wire them into your new external pcm relay. And yes the box goes out quite often for fuel pump and pcm. IF you want I can pull the wire colors and locations and further tell you which terminals on your new relay to wire them into. If so let me know i will do it tonight for you, first i have to run check on an elderly lady from my church who lost her husband about a month ago but will be right back.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
please get me that information. I'm not going to do anything tonight so take your time. Is there any way to test it to see if that's the problem before the installing the external relay? I'd like modifying the electrical system like this to be my final option. If there's any way to test and confirm that this is the problem, I'd like to consider replacing the central junction box too
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

yes i will get you all that

Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

stomer Concern:No start, no crank and the odometer shows "------" with the ignition key on. The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) will not communicate to the scan tool.

Average Reported Mileage:145331

Tests/Procedures:1. Check fuses 32 (15 amp), 33 (20 amp), and 34 (20 amp) of the Central Junction Box (CJB) for battery power with the key in the run position.

2. If these fuses have no power, remove the PCM power (#203) relay in the CJB and inspect the connection of the relay to the relay holder. Address any noted issue.

3. If the PCM power relay looks to be ok, check for two terminals of the PCM power relay to have battery voltage with the ignition switch in the Run position. One of the terminals is actually hot-at-all-times power and the other terminal powers up from the ignition switch through the PCM power diode, which is internal to the CJB.

4. If power is present on both terminals, swap the PCM power relay with another relay. Then, recheck for the odometer display to show the mileage when the ignition switch is turned to the Run position. Replace the relay as needed.

5. If power is good on the RD wires feeding the injectors and PCM, check the Vehicle Reference Voltage (VREF) feeding the Throttle Position (TP) sensor to verify it shows 5.0 volts. If this voltage is low, disconnect the 3-wire VREF sensors to determine if the VREF value will return to normal indicating a shorted sensor.

6. If the VREF circuit voltage is low with all VREF sensors disconnected, locate the two VREF circuits at the PCM and cut them to determine if VREF returns to normal on the PCM side of the circuit. Then address the circuit for a short of the harness.
The two VREF circuits of the PCM include the circuit at pin 36 of the C175e (middle) connector which supplies the sensors on the engine, and pin 45 of the C175b (passenger side) connector which supplies the Fuel Tank Pressure (FTP) sensor.

Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

That should take care of the diagnostic process. And your right we don't want to modify your wiring unless needed. But around here we dont like to buy 700 dollar fuse boxes. Lol. You run those checks and if it is your problem I will draw you up and walk you through the modification. Which in my opinion is better because the relay we use is cheaper and available in every parts store and will be easy to replace. But before we go to the trouble of making the preparations lets confirm it. I will be waiting to hear from you, oh and sir,

thanks for being patient with me, I promise you we will fix this.

Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

Customer Concern:The engine will not crank over, jumping power to the starter allows the engine to start.

Average Reported Mileage:149490

Tests/Procedures:1. Check fuse 21 in the Central Junction Box (CJB) for power. This fuse should be hot whenever the key is in the START position.

2. If OK, check power (from fuse 21) on the Dark Blue/Orange (DB/OG) wire at the Digital Transmission Range Sensor (DTR) when in the START position and power out of the DTR on the Tan/Red (T/R) wire that goes to the starter relay.

3. If the DTR checks out OK, check power on the T/R wire at the starter relay when in the START position. The relay should click and then power should be applied to the Red wire that goes to the starter.

4. If the relay does not energize, verify that the relay is properly grounded. If OK, replace the relay.

Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

Another method of checking if pcm relay checks out.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Thanks Reggie. I'll get back to you tomorrow after I run these tests
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

Thank you sir. I am confident we will have this resolved tomorrow. I will be at work but will keep checking in to see if you messaged me. If you need any help at all just hit me up. Until then rest well.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Reggie - items 1 thru 4 on the first explanation seem to be fine. I'm having a little trouble with 5 and 6. I checked the voltage at the TPS with the key on Run. It only showed 0.13 volts. I used the probes of a multimeter. Am I doing something wrong? Injector wire showed about the same at the injector. But the truck's not running so I don't know if that makes a difference. Which are the other VREF plugs?On the second explanation, fuse 21 always seems to have power, even if the key is turned off. I haven't checked the DTR at the transmission today. The last answer on this site from a different mechanic had the wire as white and pink so I may have tested the wrong wires. Is there a point at the CJB these can be checked? Also, does the DTR send a signal back to the starter relay in the CJB or directly to the solenoid? One thing I wanted to point out. In the beginning, you wrote customer is able to start engine from the solenoid. I was able to, the first time. After that, I was only able to crank it. The motor didn't start.
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

No sir you are not doing anything wrong congratulations you have found your problem, what you are checking is your voltmeter one lead to ground and the other on the 5 volt reference we check this because it is a sure fire way of verifying our computer is down. And with .013 we have no 5 volt reference.

Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

That is actually the first thing I check if I don;t have a scan tool. Which would show no data.

Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

The tps you can check the maf sensor, same color wire. See if you have 5 volts there. I have seen this so many times. Jeeps and chrysler are having the same problem with these intelligent fuse box.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Say it turns out that there's no voltage at the MAF either. What's the next step? Also, is fuse 21 supposed to be hot all the time irrespective of whether the key is inserted or not?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Reggie - what's next? Does the PCM need to be replaced?
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

No sir. I'm sorry couldn't get on here last night we had flooding here no onternet. No sir ae just got to run us a relay or u can replace the junction box

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok. Tell me the process of running a relay
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

I will sir if okay bear with me for hour or so we are unusually busy here today, and one of my techs is out sick. I will have you a detailed description drawed up over lunch

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
That's fine. Thanks Reggie
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

The supplies we will need will be an accessory relay, that is what parts house calls them. And the connector for that relay the relay will have a little bracket attached you can mount it but it doesnt have to be. And ideally i like to see the wires soldered and heat shrinked but butt connectors will do

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Do I need to pull the CJB out?
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

IF it is not to much trouble it will make it easier don't remove it just unbolt it where you can pull it out to gain access to wire more easily

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Reggie - are you planning on sending me the rest of the information to fix this? Also, I got an email from justanswer.com offering me $10 discount because the question wasn't answered. Does that have something to do with you not being able to come up with the answer for this or is it because you originally referred me to someone else?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Reggie - Are you planning on responding?
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

Sir please accept my deepest apologies. I received the opportunity of a lifetime I got to go to las vegas stayed for a week had the time of my life and it was all paid for. I got the word suddenly and didnt have time to properly prepare. I know that is not what you need to hear. I hope my actions havent caused you to look negatively on just answer. If you havent fixed this yet let me know cause I have the paper drawn up for you.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
It's fine, Reggie. It all worked out. I ended up replacing the CJB and the truck started right up. It turned out to be a good thing. The truck had a few electrical problems like the headlight couldn't come on sometimes and the high beams had stopped working. All those problems went away too when I installed the new CJB. All in all, I'm glad you ignored me.
Expert:  Reggie Whiddon replied 1 year ago.

So i did help you fix your problem? I didnt ignore you, lol. I got word on the afternoon we last talked "pack your bags" I got sent to Las Vegas caesars palace was there from tuesday to yesterday. Seen and done it all, and if you knew me you would be laughing right now, I am just an ol country boy who aint been to far out of alabama. And a vacation like this would not be possible for me, so turning it down i couldnt do. However I do regret the effect it had on some of my customers on here, I hope you will consider using me in the future. And i hope this doesnt make you angry is there anyway you would consider a positive rating? Again I apologize and I can promise you this will never happen again. My head is still spinning from this trip. I am glad your truck is fixed and your right due to the fact you had the other problems replacing the cjb was the right thing