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Is this an automatic or manual tranny?
Ok first thing is what is your anti-theft light doing when you turn the key to the on position?Does it come on solid for 2 to 3 seconds then turn off(this is called prove out)? Or does it start flashing rapidly(which means the PATS transciever does not see the chip in your key)?
If the key proves out then you will need to diagnois the starter relay in the central(underdash) fuse panel.
Here is a link to the wiring schematic for your starter
How this works is see pins 30 and 87,this is the switch side of the relay.Pins 85 and 86 are the coil side.These will be numbered on the bottom of your relay.
When power is supplied to pin 85 and ground to 86 this creates a magnetic field which then pulls the switch side closed so power on pin 30 can flow to the starter solenoid.
Now looking at the schematic you see fuse 8(30 amp) in the battery(underhood) junction box feeds both side of the relay.It also feeds the radio so if radio works then the fuse is ok.
Just make sure it is getting to the relay
Now the PCM provides the ground on pin 86 after it recieves a signal from the PATS tranciever that it see's the chip in your key.
Now if you have an owners manual look on page 150 and relay R17 is the starter relay.
If you do not have an owners manual go to this website
Hover your mouse over glovebox on the top gray taskbar and pic owner guide from the drop down menu.Then input your vehjicle info then pic owner guide and download you a copy.
Now to see if the relay is ok just swap it with R22 the decklid relay and see if it will start.
If you need anymore help just let me know
I have already diagnosed and replaced the the relay, I have power in and out of the relay, the radio works intermitantly. the anti theft device that worked the door locks ect, in this car was an aftermarket system, which was removed thinking it was the problem. I thought about the chip in the key, but i have two keys, and thought it was kind of odd that both keys would go bad at exactly the same time. I was told at one time that if the milage didnt show when the key is on that it is an ECM problem.
So let me make sure I understood you correctly you stated you have power in and out of the relay. If you have power out of the relay on pin 87 then the PATS system is out of the equation at this point.Sure the odometer being blank can indiate that you have a network concern or an ECM problem however,having power on pin 87 the starter should be engaging.The only thing in between the starter relay and the starter at this point is the transmission range sensor.
ok thats what i was looking at, is there anyway to test the transmission range sensor?
Yes just follow the wiring schematic test for power to the gray/red wire pin 6 when key is in the start position and if you have it here then test to see if you have it on the gray wire pin 9.If not then TR sensor is the problem.
Check the adjustment on it before replacing it could be just a little off.
Adjust the manual control lever to TR sensor "D" position.
sorry that turned out wrong.
im trying to pay you, but it wont let me. i keep getting a message that you haven't finished answering my question
I was waiting to soo if you had any more questions.Thanks
It should work now
F30 is suppose to be a 10 amp fuse are you sure you have the right number?
Ok that makes a little more sense then.This is the fuse that feeds the audio system in the start position.
Pull the fuse and then with the fuse out test the pins with your test light in the fuse panel where the fuse was. One side of it should have power when you have the key in the start position.Make sure it does this or if it still engages the starter when you touch it.
Thats really strange.You are hooked to ground with your test light and not power correct?
This fuse is on the power side of the relay as you can see in the schematic I sent you.It should have power from the ignition switch here when key is turned to start position.This side of the relay is the coil side so when you put power from the switch on pin 85,which is also what feeds this fuse,then the PCM provides ground on pin 86 and this creates a magnetic field which then pulls the switch side of the relay closed pin 30 to 87 which would then engage the starter. With a test light you are actually providing a path to ground before the coil so this is weird for the relay to activate like this.
Remove the starter relay and then check pin 85 with your test light see if it gets power when key is put to start position?
Pin 30 is normal but pin 85 should not have power unless key is in start position.Now do you have power at pin 85 with the relay removed? If you do then your problem is at the ignition switch.If so go to the connector C250 at the ignition switch and disconnect it and see if power is still there.If so then you have a bad ignition switch.If disconnecting it does not cure it then you have a wiring problem.Trace the harness from this connector and see if you can find a spot where it is meted together.
Here is a pic of the connector C250
Check pin 4 should have power all the time and pin 7 which is the feed to the pin 85 on the relay should not have power until ignition is in start position.
Yes sounds like your ignition switch is shorted internally.The connector look ok,not showing signs of overheating does it?
the conector looks good, the posts are clean no signes of burning or over heating.
your talking about the where the conector plugs in, not the tumbler lock corect?
Yes just making sure it hasn't shorted the wiring at the connector.
So am I understanding correctly,the test light shows circuit is fine however the starter only engages when test light is touched to pin 85?
Now when you say it cranks when you touch pin 85 with your test light is this with the relay removed? And with the relay removed then you have power like you suppose to pin 85 with switch to start? Do you get a ground from the PCM on pin 86 after the anti-theft proves out?