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sprinkles08
sprinkles08, Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep master tech
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 22983
Experience:  ASE Master and Advanced Certified, Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep Master Certified, Trans and Hybrid Specialist
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Neon: intermittent starting..no fuel pressure and there..fuel pump

Customer Question

03 neon has an intermittent starting problem. When it will not start there is no fuel pressure and there is no power at the fuel pump.
Submitted: 7 years ago.
Category: Dodge
Expert:  350matt replied 7 years ago.
Hello

The 1st thing I'd check is that is the ECU getting power?

Check its relay and fuse and examine the contacts for corrosion and wire damage, if OK then unplug the main ECU and also check the contacts here.

If Ok then check the immobiliser is definitely switching things off
Customer: replied 7 years ago.

Is the ECU below the air box?

 

Also which relay and fuse go to the ECU?

Expert:  350matt replied 7 years ago.
Hello

The ECU is in the passenger footwell behind some trim and the ECU fuse and relay are both located in the engine bay fusebox, which fuse is which should be on the inside of the box lid
Customer: replied 7 years ago.
the ecu is not in the passenger footwell and there is no ecu fuse in the engine fusebox
Expert:  350matt replied 7 years ago.
Hello

Apologies I was looking at the information for a Chrysler Neon not the Dodge , and the ECU is at the front of the engine in front of the radiator on the rivers side. you must remove the whole airbox to get to it.

The ECU fuse may be labeled up as 'ignition' or PCM ( power train control module)
Customer: replied 7 years ago.
Relist: Answer quality.
Would like to repost the original question to Dodge experts
Expert:  350matt replied 7 years ago.
Fair enough I'll opt out
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

Hello and welcome to JustAnswer!

 

Have you checked for spark at the time it's not starting?

Customer: replied 7 years ago.

After idling the car a few minutes, here are the codes:

P0016 crank/cam timing misalignment

P0016 crank/cam bank 1 sensor A

P0344 cam pos sensor interrupt

P0344 cam pos sens intermittent B1

P0627 fuel pump relay control circuit

P0685 ASD relay control circuit

P0562/D low voltage

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

That's quite a list and a few of them are related, but I believe you set a few of them yourself during testing. Disconnect the battery for a couple minutes to clear the codes, start it up again and see which codes set again.

 

Customer: replied 7 years ago.
I cleared the codes, but it won't start this morning. It doesn't appear to have spark but I don't have 100% confidence in my spark tester with these small diameter spark plug wires. It is a tester that it pressed against the spark plug wire and it lights up.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

Unplug the coil and find the dark green/orange wire. This wire should power up for about 1 second when you first turn the key on and then again while cranking the engine. Check both of these situations and let me know what you see.

 

Customer: replied 7 years ago.
There is power in both conditions
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

Try checking for spark differently. Insert a screwdriver into the end of one of the plug wires, hold the handle of the screwdriver, hold the metal of the screwdriver about 3/8" away from a good ground metal engine part. Have a helper crank the engine and see if the spark jumps the gap.

 

Customer: replied 7 years ago.

there is spark.

What I have found is that the ECU is not sending the ground signal to the fuel pump relay or to the ASD relay. The big question is why?

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

It would either have to be a failed engine controller (PCM) or the wire is open between the PCM and the relay.

 

Remove the relay and turn it over, you will find the terminals are numbered. Find pins 3 and 5 or 87 and 30 (depending on how it's numbered). Use a paperclip or a short piece of wire to jump between these pins in the fuse box and see if the fuel pump runs and the engine starts.

Customer: replied 7 years ago.
the car is running now with the relay in place
Customer: replied 7 years ago.

I get the following codes:

P0016 - crank/cam misalignment

P0344 - cam sensor interrupt

P0562/D - low voltage

 

I have replaced the cam sensor and cleaned the connector.

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

Was the cam sensor replaced before or after these codes started setting?

 

Where did the replacement sensor come from?

Customer: replied 7 years ago.
It was getting a P0344 before I replaced the sensor. Since it was only $22 I thought I would swap it out. The sensor is a BWD brand from O'Reillys. The starting was intermittent before I put the new sensor in and it is still intermittent. One day I did put the old one back in to see if it had any effect and it didn't. The new one is in now.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

So the P0016 wasn't setting before the sensor was replaced? The first thing I would recommend is replacing the cam sensor with a Mopar part. Aftermarket sensors have shown many quality problems and aren't recommended for use in Chrysler products. They will often produce an incorrect signal, even causing a no start right out of the box.

 

P0016 sets when the cam and crank sensor signals don't line up. There have been problems with poor quality aftermarket sensors causing this code to set because they aren't built to proper specifications.

Customer: replied 7 years ago.
I ordered a mopar sensor and I'll let you know after I install it.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.
Sounds great!
Customer: replied 7 years ago.

I'll be out of town on Fri and Mon. Will get back with you on Tues. Appreciate your persistence in guiding me through this.

Tony

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.
Sounds great. Have a nice trip!
Customer: replied 7 years ago.
I installed the Mopar cam sensor but it didn't help. The car is not starting at the moment.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

Clear the codes out and give the starter a good 10 second grind and then re read the codes and see what has set.

 

Customer: replied 7 years ago.

There were no engine codes but there were these codes under transmission:

0700 trans controller malfunction

1684 battery power to module disconnected

0562/d low voltage

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

Unplug the cam sensor and see if the engine starts (with a long crank time). If it does start then note how it idles, whether it's normal or rough.

 

Customer: replied 7 years ago.
It did not start. It won't start because there is no fuel pressure and there is no fuel pressure because there is no ground signal from the ECU to the fuel pump relay.
Customer: replied 7 years ago.

now there is a code 0340 for cam sensor present.

 

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

Put everything back together and unplug the coil. Check for battery voltage on this wire while cranking the engine.

 

Customer: replied 7 years ago.
the wire to the coil has voltage when starting
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.
Did you check at the fuel pump relay for ground with the key on or with the engine cranking?
Customer: replied 7 years ago.
Yes, I think the ground is the problem. From what I can tell the ground comes from the PCM. I am checking pin 85 for the ground and it is not there with ignition on or when starting.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.
If you ground pin 3 in PCM connector 3 (brown wire) with the key turned on does the fuel pump run?
Customer: replied 7 years ago.

The fuel pump runs when I jump from 30 to 87 in the fuse box, with the relay out.

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

But it didn't run before when I asked you to jump it did it?

 

If you ground pin 3 in PCM connector 3 (brown wire) with the key turned on does the fuel pump run?

 

Customer: replied 7 years ago.

Its starting at the moment. I'll have to wait till it quits starting to run this test.

 

I see the PCM under the air box and it has 3 large connectors. Is that correct? Is connector 3 the bottom one?

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 7 years ago.

In the mean time while it's running you might check out the harness along the lower radiator support area. The wiring leaves the PCM and runs along there and is a great place to catch debris and get into the harness. I would give it a good inspection and wiggle test it with the car running to see if anything happens.