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Why dose my 1992 Dacota 5.2 try torun about 20 degres retarded.

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why dose my 1992 Dacota 5.2 try torun about 20 degres retarded.
Submitted: 8 years ago.Category: Dodge
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Answered in 44 minutes by:
6/17/2010
Dodge Mechanic: Thomas, Dodge Mechanic replied 8 years ago
Thomas
Thomas, Dodge Mechanic
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 1,543
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When you accell it goes to 20 degrees retarded? Or at idle?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
the engine does this all the time even when tring to start engine. There are no codes. I have replaced the computer with rebult one frome Dodge. It acts like some thing is telling it to run this way. I even checked the flex plate.
Dodge Mechanic: Thomas, Dodge Mechanic replied 8 years ago
Have you checked the distributor for side to side wear? Also have you checked your timing chain for wear?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I replaced the timing chane about six mounths before problem started. The distribiter side play is ok, the distribter has a half cercle pice insted of a reluctor it works with the crank posion sensor. The first time it acted up I replaced the crank posion sensor and it ran right fore awhile.
Dodge Mechanic: Thomas, Dodge Mechanic replied 8 years ago
I suggest replacing the distributor although it may look good you have covered everything else it could be.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
the distribiter has no hall effects to control timing the crank possion sensor controls timing. Iff you disconect battry and erase memery from computer it will run normaly ontill computer gets readings from sensors then it retards the timing. I all ready checked all the easy things. I have  a ASE master medium/heavy truck certification and have been certified on gas engines fore over 30 years.How mutch air gap on crank posion sensor would efect its readings.
Dodge Mechanic: Thomas, Dodge Mechanic replied 8 years ago
Ok you have many more years than I do I will let you see if someone else can help you.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Thomas I am looking for some one who knows dodge electronics, this thing has been driving me nuts.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
Dodgerench
Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 3,423
Experience: 30+ years Dodge/Chrysler exp., ASE Master with L1 certification. Driveability/ combustion specialist
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I ran into a similar problem once after an engine had been worked on down at the shop.

Hi... my name is Ed. This was a slightly different setup from your Magnum, but might apply. What happened was the camshaft locking plate had been missed as the engine was reassembled, allowing the cam to "walk" out as pressure was applied to the oil pump/ distributor drive gear at the back of the block.

What this did was to essentially retard the distributor timing enough that spark would jump backward at the cap to the trailing cylinder. My loss of timing was a nice neat 45 degrees, but with your ignition reference being at the flywheel, it might not work out quite the same.

What you could try to begin with would be to rotate the distributor a good 20 degrees counterclockwise once the engine is running and recheck your timing loss. Turning the distributor too far will upset the cam-crank sync needed to keep the engine running, but you can mitigate that effect by disconnecting the cam sensor connector at the distributor after the engine is running. This system needs to see cam signal but once at engine start and it can be lost after that without notice. Having an out-of-sync signal greatly upsets the system however, which is why I suggest disconnecting the distributor pigtail.

On the odd chance that you haven't indexed the distributor properly (or aren't completely clear on how it's done), be sure to write back. I'll be glad to describe the process.

Talk in a bit,
Ed

Edited by Dodgerench on 6/18/2010 at 3:29 AM EST
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Ed I would have to get the engine started whitch it does not wont to do now. I know the cam lock plate is in place becous I put a timing chane in it about 6 mounths befor truble started.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
I know... my concern is that maybe it loosened and fell off? I know, it's a longshot, but I really have no good explanation for your timing retard if it's not this or the distributor index that's involved unless it's something like a distributor rotor tip that's dislocated and about to fall off. Things like that do happen on these engines.

Are you familiar with the distributor index process on these engines? If you are, you know what a PITA it is!

Ed

Edited by Dodgerench on 6/18/2010 at 3:57 AM EST
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
The timing is retarted whwen cranking the engine with evering set corectly. I thought the flex plate was broke so I pulled the dust cover from the belhousing, no easy feat on a 4/4. The flex plate seems to be ok.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

But right now the engine doesn't run at all? Is that right?

 

If so, does it have spark?

Does the CHECK ENGINE lamp do its 3-second bulb test at key on?

 

Just wondering..

Ed

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
It has spark and the check engine light does its 3-second bulb test at key on. It hits once in a while when cranking.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

That kind of makes it sound like all we're lacking is fuel pressure. Check to see if you've got a good 30 psi or better at the rail and that the liquid inside really is gasoline... just to be sure. Adding a surrogate fuel source directly to the throttle body might settle the lack of fuel issue. Carb cleaner is good, but I don't like starting fluid for situations like this because it can compression-ignite much like a diesel does, making it look like spark is OK when sometimes it's not.

 

If that checks OK, I'd be inclined to look for a distributor index problem or possibly weak spark. You need at least 1/2" of spark at the plug wire ends to get this unit to light up. Less than that sometimes just isn't adequate.

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
The fule pressure is good and the spark is good. Before I changed the computer the secend time it would start and run corectly iff I disconected the battry and cleard the memery it would run at the corect timing untill it read the sensor imput then it would retard the timing. I thought the computer was the problem so Ichanged it now the new computer is working off the sensor imput all the time. That iswhy I think that there is somthing telling it to time the engine slow. I have been fighting this thing over a year.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
Wow.... a year?
OK, it's time to get some clarification. I need to know what it is that leads you to believe timing is being retarded that far and how you measure it.

Give me your basic problems with the way the truck starts and runs, just like a customer would tell a service writer... but spare no details about what you see, hear, smell... or have done. The original complaint or problem might be helpful as well.

Let's start sorta over and give me your best shot. I have the feeling that I'm lagging far behind on the info front and it would be good to get me up to speed. Spare no details, I'm ready to listen.

Ed
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I used a timing light on it when I got it to start and when it would not start. All right here goes originaly it would studer or buck at cruse above 35 mph. then the gharging systom started to over gharge or quit gharging at radem . checked it out found volt. reg. in compter was causing proplem. Then the fuel pump went out got the fuel pump replaced. the studering was still there so I changed the tps then Ifeplaced computer, becaus of charging problem and hopfuly fix the studer (it did not). Then it started to run bad(cut out and then surge) when half wormed up. I replaced the crank senser, that fixed the problem for a wile. then it started doing it agen. Along the way ihave replaced all the sensers, the crank senser 2 more times. It was still stutering when iIquit trying to drive it.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
Thanks!
Light throttle buck is consistent with distributor index problems, but that was quite a long time ago. I'd really like to index the distributor again just to get the basic parameters down and we'll go from there.

Distributor index is a manual process on the 92s, which you probably already know. Are you completely familiar with the process or can I send you some info?

One other thing I'm concerned with is the subject of the crank sensor. I've learned the hard way that aftermarket sensors just plain are not the way to go. Are you using an aftermarket cam or crank sensor right now?

Right back,
Ed
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
The crank senser is from dodge, thepickup in the distribitor is after market but istill have the original.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
Very good. I'm not concerned with cam so much since it only changes signal once per engine revolution. Not much chance of strangeness there.

Is there a chance you could pull codes now that the engine is in a non-running state? A scan is preferred but using the old Chrysler "flash method" still works fairly well on the 92 models.

Let me know if you're not familiar with the flash method or if you can come up with any trouble codes, past or present!

Back in a bit,
Ed
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I am familiar with the flash method. The codes it flashed are 12 and 55. Ikeep the battry disconected. The only other codes that it has ever had are46 and 47 battry voltage too high or too low. If this thing had distributer controled timing I would have had it dunning along time ago. I have been tuning gas engines for about 54 years. I was 12 years old win I tuned the first car for some one. Iam going nuts with this thing.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
Dang, nothing there!
All this trouble you've had with the charging system and running in general might be a basic power or ground problem. The Kodas from this time period had issues with a B+ feed rotting out in the left fender area, a feed that was used to power the PCM and fuel pump/ ASD relay outputs. Loss of that input would make the PCM unresponsive (no CE light bulb test), but the splice wasn't always fair about who got shorted. Sometimes it was ASD... sometimes PCM... or fuel pump. It varied.

Ground is another matter, but just as important as power. My preference for testing any of these circuits is to use a high-draw bulb... something like a head or fog lamp bulb... to push some extra amps through the wiring. If the bulb lights brightly and stays bright, it pretty much indicates a good connection.

Do you have a PCM connector pinout for the 60-way connector? If not I'll be happy to send you one for testing.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I do not have PCM connector pin out for the 60-way connector. My mailing adress is Gerald Schmuck 2415 SE. Oak Grove Blvd. Milwaukie Or. 97267
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
Here it comes, Gerald!

graphic

No postage required.

Remove the black plastic wire shield on the back side of the connector for a better view of pin numbering. These diagrams are hard to follow for location, but the wire color is accurate.

Ed

Edited by Dodgerench on 6/21/2010 at 3:21 AM EST
Dodgerench
Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
thank you for all your help. I have it running. When checking to disprove the lack of power to PCM I discoverd that the timing was corect now so I started checking other things and found that I had ran it out of gas I put some gas in it now it rus fine the timing is right where it belongs. The distributer is getting a little loos, if it still stuters at cruse I know to replace the distributer.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

I'd have never guessed! Great news anyway... and many thanks!

 

Ed

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Me neather I was only keeping alittle gas in it and I did not even think about having usedit up. The dodge crank posion senser cured the timing problem. Thanks a lot for all your help.
Dodge Mechanic: Dodgerench, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
My pleasure, bud!
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