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2001 dodge caravan. no trouble codes. will not run.

Customer Question
new fuel pump and filter...
2001 dodge caravan. no trouble codes. will not run. new fuel pump and filter. plenty of pressure where it goes into manifold.starts and dies immeditatly. just started on way home from work. pulled one spark plug and grounded, getting good fire. thought it might be injectors, but why would all go bad at once. maybe signal to injectors. how do I check these if you think this is the problem
Submitted: 10 years ago.Category: Dodge
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Answered in 1 hour by:
9/29/2007
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago
RIP
RIP, Lead Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 5,591
Experience: ASE Certified Master Technician, L1 Adv Level, Ca Smog License, Chrysler Aftermarket Training.
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Hi, welcome to jA.

  • How many miles are on this Caravan?
  • Are there any warning lamps on the dash, while your cranking the engine?

~Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
90000 miles i guess all warning lights are light when it is cranked.
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

Thanks, XXXXX XXXXX you have a typical Immobilizer failure...see the description below...do you have another key you can try or have made - it's by far the most common problem.

 

Sentry Key Immobilizer System
The Sentry Key Immobilizer System (SKIS) is available as a factory-installed option on this vehicle. It is designed to provide passive protection against unauthorized vehicle use by disabling the engine, after two (2) seconds of running, whenever an invalid key is used to start the vehicle. The SKIS is active whenever the ignition is ON and does not require any customer intervention. The primary components of the system are the Sentry Key Immobilizer Module (SKIM) , Sentry Key (ignition key w/ a transponder molded into the head), indicator light, Body Control Module (BCM), and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) . The SKIM is mounted to the steering column with the molded, integral antenna mounted on the light halo surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The indicator light, is located in the message center.

The SKIS includes keys from the factory which are pre-programmed. Each SKIM will recognize a maximum of eight Sentry Keys. If the customer would like to own additional keys other than those provided with the vehicle, they can be purchased from any authorized dealer. These keys must be programmed to the SKIM on the vehicle in order for the system to recognize them as valid keys. This can be done by the dealer with a DRB III scan tool or by a customer if this feature is available in their market and they have two (2) valid keys already available to them. Refer to the Service Procedures portion of this system for additional details. The SKIS performs a self-test each time the ignition switch is turned to the ON position and will store Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's) if a system malfunction is detected. The SKIS can be diagnosed and any stored DTC's can be retrieved using a DRB III scan tool as described in the appropriate Body Diagnostic Procedures.

graphic

TRANSPONDER KEY
The Sentry Key Immobilizer System (SKIS) uses a transponder chip that is integral to each ignition key to communicate with the Sentry Key Immobilizer Module (SKIM). Ignition keys are supplied with the vehicle when it is shipped from the factory. The transponder chip is undermolded within the head of the key. This undermold is hidden beneath an overmolded rubber cap.

Each Sentry Key has a unique transponder identification code permanently programmed into it by the manufacturer. Likewise, the SKIM has a unique "Secret Key" code programmed into it by the manufacturer as well. When a Sentry Key is programmed into the memory of the SKIM, the SKIM stores the transponder identification code from the Sentry Key, and the Sentry Key learns the "Secret Key" code from the SKIM. Once the Sentry Key learns the "Secret Key" code of the SKIM, it is also permanently programmed into the transponder's memory. Therefore, blank keys for the SKIS must be programmed by the SKIM in addition to being cut to match the mechanical coding of the ignition lock cylinder. Refer to Electrical, Vehicle Theft Security, Transponder Key, Standard Procedure - Transponder Programming.

The Sentry Key's transponder is within the range of the SKIM's transceiver antenna ring when it is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder. When the ignition switch is turned to the ON position, the SKIM communicates with the Sentry Key via a Radio Frequency (RF) signal. The SKIM determines if a valid key is present based on the information it receives from the Sentry Key. If a valid key is detected, that fact is communicated to the PCM via the PCI bus and the vehicle is allowed to continue running. If an invalid key is received by the PCM or no status at all is communicated, the vehicle will stall after two (2) seconds of running. The indicator light will be flashing at this point. The Sentry Key's transponder can not be repaired. If it is faulty or damaged, it must be replaced.

Common communication problems:

  • Two transponder keys too close together.
  • Speed Pass too close to transponder key. Solid indicator that there is a system failure.
  • Loss of PCM communication.
  • Failed antenna circuit.

VTSS/SKIS INDICATOR LAMP
The Sentry Key Immobilizer System (SKIS) uses an indicator light to convey information on the status of the system to the customer. This light is shared with the Vehicle Theft Security System (VTSS). The light is located in the Message Center. The indicator light is controlled by the Body Control Module (BCM) based upon messages it receives from the Sentry Key Immobilizer Module (SKIM) on the PCI bus.

The BCM performs a four second bulb check, regardless of SKIM messages. After the bulb check, the lamp is controlled according to SKIM messages. Then, the SKIM sends messages to the BCM to operate the light based upon the results of the SKIS self tests. The light may be actuated in two possible ways, flashing or on solid. If the light comes ON and stays ON solid after a power-up test, this indicates that the SKIM has detected a system malfunction. If the SKIM detects an invalid key when the ignition switch is moved to the ON position, it sends a message on the PCI bus to the BCM, to flash the light. The SKIM can also send a message to flash the light and generate a single audible chime at the same time. These two events occurring simultaneously indicate that the SKIS has been placed into the "Customer Learn" mode. Refer to Electrical, Vehicle Theft Security, Transponder Key, Standard Procedure - Transponder Programming for more information on the "Customer Learn" mode. If the light comes ON and stays ON after the power-up test, diagnosis of the SKIS should be performed using a DRB III scan tool and the appropriate Body Diagnostic Procedures. The light is not a serviceable component.

 

 

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
Reply to RIP's Post: tell me is this possible. this car was driven home at about 10 miles per hour after it started acting up.it would only do about 10mph. now it won,t start at all
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

No that doesn't make any sense, normally this is the first sign of acting up..the firing over for 2 seconds and stalling. During the time it acted up, did any warning lamps come on the dash or did the odometer read "no bus?"

~Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
this isn,t my vehicle. i am trying to help a retired friend fix his car. he doesn,t remember any lights comming on when this happened. he said when he first got it home it would run at about 10 miles per hour. now it won,t start at all. i was over there and the mileage was showing up on the odometer
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

Let's try this...i'm sure it's an injector pulse problem...but let's verify it's fuel related. Spray some carburator cleaner into the engine's intake, do this by first removig the air duct and spraying the cleaner in there..try not to use starting fluid it's too volitile for this test. Be sure to replace the duct before cranking the engine...crank it and see if it runs longer until the cleaner runs out...this will tell us it is definitly a fuel problem. Let me know the results and we'll go from there. Meanwhile, do you have another ignition key to use?

~Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
we actually used gas yesterday and it did seem to help. there is another key. we will try it when his wife gets here
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

Try the key and let me know, I'd hate for it to be this simple and run you in circles trying to test it...it really does sound like an immobilizer problem and at this milage there aren;t any other common failures with the fuel system. On the other hand the ignition coil, the CKP and CMP sensors go out, and in some cases the engine computer...but almost all of those cause a loss of ignition spark - which you have already tested. In you case I think the immobilzer is not allowing the injection pulse..i'll on and off the site throughout the day from 2:00pm PST, so if you leave a post I will promise to get back in a timely manner after that time.

~Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
if i leave a post, do i need to leave it for rip?or should i just keep this sight open?
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

You can just come back to it anytime and the post will still be open to respond to as we've been doing thus far...I check my emails regularly so it shouldn't be more than an hour in between getting an answer. If it does start with the other key than let me know as well....hope it does :)

~Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
tried the other key and still the same result
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

Alright...

  • Do you have access to a Noid Lamp - for injector pulse testing?
  • What type of scanner are you using, does it also show data?

~Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
i have autoxray and it does show data
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

Does it show if the CAM and CRANK sensor are "in sync," while cranking the engine. Usually the display will show -- CAM (YES) / CRANK (YES)...or if there is a fault it will read CAM (NO)/CRANK (YES), or any combination with a no or out of sync error. I'd like to know if this may possibly be a CAM or CRANK sensor error...if it doesn;t show this data, we'll move on. Just so you know that the problem is now difficult to diagnose without the factory level scan tool becuase even if there still is an immobilizer problem we can't access any of the data without the correct scanner...but let's see what we can check/test and come to a educated conclusion.

~Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
it only shows ignition timing 9 degree advance
what is noid lamp
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

Noid lamp is a small bulb assembly that plugs right into the fuel injector connector, can't be more than $20 at most auto part stores...it will tell us if the injector pulse is happening at the injector connector...but what we need to do to verify this is keep the engine running on carb cleaner, while monitoring the noid lamp for at least 5 seconds after it is running...since it fires on it's own for the first couple of seconds. The immobilizer system directly cuts off the fuel injector pulse inside the computer. Before getting a Noid lamp and some carb cleaner I'd like you to disconenct the CAM sensor and see if the engine may run...this will turn on the check engine lamp immediatly and you'll need to clear the code. Can you tell me what engine size you have?

Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
3.3
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

Cam you disconect the CMP sensor wiring connector. Illustration below. Than try to start it you may need to crank for about 10 seconds so the computer can recognize the CMP signal is not there. CMP sensor is used by the computer to synchronize fuel injectors...a bad signal could result in stalling after starting, without setting a check engine lamp code. When the CMP signal is missing the computer runs on default values. Let me know the results.

~Rip

The camshaft position sensor is mounted in the front of the timing case cover.

 

 

graphic
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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
i am not at the location of the van. he does not have internet. if i disconnect the cmp will the car maybe start and if it does what does this tell me i would have a fifteen minute drive to the van
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

It tells us that the CMP sensor is most likely bad (about 90% chance if the engine runs with it disconnected)...if it doesn't i'd like you to get a can of carb cleaner and use those straws that come with it to spray cleaner in the intake while someone cranks it over...spray in short bursts it doesn't take much to keep it running. Place a Noid Lamp on one of the injectors while your keeping it running...if the lamp stops blinking but your keeping the van running on the carb cleaner we know it's not getting a computer injection signal. The van will run rough and check engine lamp will come on during this test.

~Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
I'll try this and get back with you
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

No problem, let me know the results when you can.

~Rip

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
i went over to the van and checked the keys. the key he has been using has no chip in it. It is just a metal key. I tried disconnecting the CMP the van would not start at all.
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

Alright...so this van does NOT have the immobilizer system...that means it must be that it's not getting injector pulse...you can buy a Noid lamp and test like I described, but sounds like it may have a bad computer. Below is a location of the computer...to test it you need access to a factory level scan tool...they do fail on these, but for injector pulse it much more rare.

graphic

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Customer reply replied 10 years ago
just one more question. i was told the fuel pressure was ok, i didn't check it, what should the pressure be at the motor
Dodge Mechanic: RIP, Lead Technician replied 10 years ago

Definitly should check the pressure if you actually haven't put it on a guage..it should be about 58 psi.

~Rip

RIP
RIP, Lead Technician
Category: Dodge
Satisfied Customers: 5,591
Experience: ASE Certified Master Technician, L1 Adv Level, Ca Smog License, Chrysler Aftermarket Training.
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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
catalytic converter plugged
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RIP
RIP, Lead Technician
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Satisfied Customers: 5,591
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