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socrateaser, Lawyer
Category: Criminal Law
Satisfied Customers: 39169
Experience:  Retired (mostly)
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My 34 year old daughter is temporarily conserved (TCON) for

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My 34 year old daughter is temporarily conserved (TCON) for 30 days in a Medicare rip off hospital. I've asked for a second opinion (Cal. Health and Safety Code section 1383.15) , however the hospital says I have to bring the Dr.(s) to the locked facility. That's not going to happen.

There is going to be a hearing on May 2nd to appoint a conservator for my daughter. This is outrageous. She was about to submit her final thesis for her M.A.. at CSUDH. She was to graduate in May.

Dr. Thankachen of College Hospital in Cerritos, CA., keeps walking around in her unit that she was moved into by a different Dr. and keeps yelling at my daughter in front of others: "What are you doing here? You are delusional and belong back in the other unit."

First of all, my daughter is not delusional. She received modern medicine (in-Vega) at that facility from Dr. Salo, which relieves the symptoms for 30 days. So she sits in there and IS ASKED TO COLOR THE same page over and over, or to participate in group where she hears the same useless stories from the same people over and over. She sleeps 14 to 16 hours a day, is ridiculed about her vegetarian diet or wanting exercise in a smoke free environment.

The staff is horrific. If you are Spanish speaking you get good treatment. If you are white you are treated like a dog. Dr. Thankachen was plucked out of Indian med school directly into this hospital by Dr. Pratty. He was never a psych Dr. Nor is Dr. Salo, who is an Osteopath. However, WIC law requires 2 "professionals" in order to conserve her, irregardless if they are or are not psychiatrists via training.

My daughter is about to be put away for life. The court appointed public defender has yet to even contact my daughter and the hearing is this week?


I am an attorney with more than 25 years experience. I will provide your information today and look forward to assisting you.


I am very sorry to hear of this situation for your daughter


Tell me why she has been placed in the hospital - what behavior prompted this and


Tell me what information I can provide to you, please?


Customer: replied 4 years ago.

One must understand the business model of the psych hospital in order to answer your question.


The answer is she was delusional and perhaps psychotic after the hospital did it's unlawful release of her 3 times in the prior two months. Unlawful in so far as the releases did not follow CA law because of the hospital's negligence in how it does its discharge of patients. She was on 3 different psych medications in 4 weeks and never titrated or had a follow-up.


How do I get a 2nd opinion if the hospital says I have to bring a Dr. to the locked facility? I don't know any Dr.'s like that. She has lawful right to a 2nd opinion.


This hospital will do anything to keep her billing.


Thank you for the information I requested.

I suggest that you will need to contact a local psychiatrist and make the appointment for the exam in the hospital. If you have a medical doctor whom you go to, they should be able to provide a referral for you. Many psychiatrists will plan to come to the hospital in these situations They are used to it. So your medical/family doctor should be able to assist you.

Your other option, of course, is to hire her a local attorney to oversee the hospital procedures and they will have a psychiatrist come and evaluate her. If you are saying that the hospital is to blame for something, then I suggest you would want a local attorney to assist not only with the 2nd opinion mental health eval but also to ensure that her rights are not being infringed.

I am sorry that your daughter is experiencing this mental breakdown and that you are not comfortable with the hospital. I am sure it is very concerning as well as frustrating for you.

My goal is to provide you with excellent service – if you feel you have received anything less, please reply back as I am happy to address follow-up questions. Kindly rate me when you are done.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Our daughter is being conserved, probably for a long time, because College Hospital kept giving her new psych medication every week, never titrating her on or off the previous dose, and then making her wait many days until her next psych appt on the outside. The only hospital Humana, the HMO uses thru its mental health unit Windstone , is College Hospital.
Here she is treated worse than a rabid dog. None of the Dr. s are accredited. The so-called psychiatrist who gave her a new diagnosis of scizoaffective disorder is a bone Dr., an osteopath. The rounds Dr., Thankachen, is an Indian plucked right out of Indian school who files court papers...reason being to collect the insurance $. The judge relies on 2 professionals, a bone Dr. and a school Dr. as proffesionals to put my daughter away. And even though she is entitled to a 2nd opinion, the hospital will not allow it, unless the Dr.s come there. There is no psychologist on staff. My daughter was gang raped. She had an abortion, as a result, even though it is against our faith. Then she got pelvic inflammatory disease because they forgot some of the flesh inside. It rotted inside. So she kept calling out for psychological help, as returning to the OC, the scene of the crime, which stirred up horrible memories and brought about her extreme need for psychotherapy. This is not offered at College Hospital. There is no psychological one on one. Only the needle. And needle after needle of Haldol came. Sometimes 6 times the allowed limit. You see, when she was sent there yet again, she had a tantrum. So she was sent to the ICU , with the gang bangers , just the kind of people that raped her. Then she was attacked by a staff member (another gang banger) who slammed a door in her face. The last straw in that unit was when her two room mates threw chairs and my daughter was blamed and written up for it and lost her life to conservatorship because of the two incidents and because she keeps being sent back there by Humana. Oh, to top it off, the gang-banger woman room mate runs full force into my daughter and knocks her out. No action against the other woman. Just more Haldol for my daughter. The social worker won t talk to me. She refers me to the Orange County Deputy Public Guardian and he refers me to the public defender. Neither the judge nor the pubhlic defender say a word to my daughhter. They treat her as delusional. She is lucid as can be. She was ready to be discharged on April 7th, the end of her 14 day hold. I came to pick her up. She filled out a 28 page advance directive in front of 2 families. She filled out a power of attorney. I gave the documents to the nurse who laughed at me, saying she has been conserved. The next day, the 8th, the hospital files conservator papers and disregards XXXXX XXXXX Judge Lee in probate court sees the recommendations of 2 professionals and her goose is cooked. She has no chance.
BotXXXXX XXXXXne, go here if you have no insurance and you will be treated and maybe thrown out to SKID ROW, as they normally do. However, should you be unlucky and have insurance, good luck to you! This hospital will try to keep you as long as possible.


So no I am not satisfied with your answer, as the mental health insurer, Windstone, sides with the hospital and won't give my daughter the time of day. Neither her family Dr. nor her to be psychiatrist are of any help. This is southern California where there is a great shortage of psych Dr.'s. and other mental health professionals. I asked for legal advice!


I am sorry for this situation with your daughter.

That is fine that you do not like my answer. Please DO NOT RATE any answers from me. I will opt out and perhaps another professional here can assist you with what you need.

Best of luck with everything.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Relist: Other.
From Sam
Monday, April 29, 2013 1:51 PM EST

I am sorry for this situation with your daughter.

That is fine that you do not like my answer. Please DO NOT RATE any answers from me. I will opt out and perhaps another professional here can assist you with what you need.

Best of luck with everything.

Edited by Sam on 4/29/2013 at 1:51 PM EST
Thank you for your question. While I look forward to working with you to provide you the information you are seeking, I would ask that you please understand that all we can do is provide you information as to what options are legally available to you based on the facts you describe and that we cannot represent you or your daughter in this matter, nor can we change the laws or legal requirements that you need to follow to try to help your daughter. With that understanding I am more than willing to work with you to provide you some additional information if you would like.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Do you have any LPS experience in California law?

I do, but I am no longer available to work with you and must opt out. I am sorry. Best wishes with your matter.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Relist: Other.
2 attorneys opted out. They have no experience with California LPS law.


I've had clients at College Hospital in Cerritos and in Costa Mesa. Also at Western Medical in Santa Ana, before they closed the mental health floor.

I don't want to annoy you, but I'm not entirely clear on what it is you want to know about the legal issues involved in this situation. If you could restate your question succinctly, I will try to assist.

Thanks in advance.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

My daughter has a conservatorship hearing on May 2nd and we are unrepresented. That is the main issue. Finding someone to discuss the LPS strategy with so she can walk out. Otherwise, I try and figure things out as best I can. So here goes.


I've asked Patients Rights to perform an audit on her chart to verify the sequence of welfare and institution code accuracy. Steps were skipped. Notifications were not sent. I've asked the patient's rights advocate's office in Sacramento to ask to have the case thrown out, However, I do not know if I have to file a motion, or not?


The deputy public guardian said to my daughter that she was being conserved because of my behavior towards hospital employees.Why would that affect her? How do I get him to say that under oath?


Also, she has had zero meetings with her public defender, Can she get out of being conserved if the public defender never meets with her?

I'm assuming that the upcoming hearing is a W&I 5276, probable cause hearing. Under W&I 5256.3-5256.4, the person to be certified has the right to be present at the hearing, and the following:

(1) Assistance by an attorney or advocate.
(2) To present evidence on his or her own behalf.
(3) To question persons presenting evidence in support of the certification decision.
(4) To make reasonable requests for the attendance of facility employees who have knowledge of, or participated in, the certification decision.
(5) If the person has received medication within 24 hours or such longer period of time as the person conducting the hearing may designate prior to the beginning of the hearing, the person conducting the hearing shall be informed of that fact and of the probable effects of the medication.

If your daughter cannot afford an attorney, then the public defender must represent her at the hearing. If the public defender has not interviewed your daughter, and/or attempted to obtain an independent psychiatric assessment, then you need to hire a lawyer with LPS experience and get an evaluation, if possible. I realize you have already stated that this is not going to happen. If not, then the judge will be observing your daughter at the hearing, and the decision will largely be made based upon a combination of the testimony of the psychiatrist for the facility and the testimony of your daughter. A competent lawyer can ask questions that would cause the court to order your daughter's release -- i.e., questions intended to demonstrate that your daughter is not a (1) danger to herself or others, or that she is (2) gravely disabled.

Absent proof of #1 or #2, your daughter must be released. However, the burden of proof is by a preponderance of evidence, which means that whichever side presents the better case, no matter how minimally, will prevail.

Personally, I wouldn't trust the public defender, unless I had interviewed him/her and determined that he/she has substantial experience with LPS hearings. Most PDs are buried with criminal law cases, and they rarely have any exposure to mental health matters -- so, they don't know how to approach the hearing.

A private attorney could try to discredit the psychiatrist on grounds that, as you've already mentioned, the facility is simply trying to make money from your daughter's health care insurance. I agree, and I have observed that a facility will keep a patient just as long as the insurance benefits are available. So, I won't try to dissuade you that this is not part of the facility's calculus. However, I have also seen plenty of patients who actually need involuntary conservatorship -- and, since I do not know your daughter, I can't comment specifically on her circumstances.

Your allegations suggest that your daughter is not at all mentally disordered. If true, then this should be apparent at the hearing -- because she will be able to answer any questions that the court may have (unless she's drugged before appearing). If I were representing her at the hearing, I would have had an independent psychiatrist meet with her already.

I further realize that the cost of all this can be prohibitive -- however, there is nothing that I can do about the fact that "due process" in America costs money -- and sometimes, it's a lot of money.

In sum, talk to the PD, if he/she will talk to you in advance of the hearing. If the PD has no experience, then hire a private lawyer who does.

One more thing: Unless you are a lawyer, then you cannot represent your daughter. You can't file a motion or a petition for anything, and you won't be able to ask questions or argue at the hearing. So, while I understand your desire to be involved and help, the best help that you can provide is economic. If you can afford to hire a private lawyer or an independent psychiatrist to evaluate your daughter, then that's what you need to do, because otherwise, you may be "outgunned" at the hearing -- especially if your daughter is heavily medicated so that she cannot answer questions intelligently.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

Sorry. This is not a PCH. It is a Citation to my daughter for appointment of a conservator because my daughter was found to be gravely disabled.


She receives SSDI. She gets food stamps. She lives at home. She now has an injectible every 30 days for her medication and will be seen by her psychiatrist Dr. Dao in G.G.. as scheduled. I will drive her there and wait.


Is this enough? Or is there more that is needed?

The person for whom an LPS conservatorship is sought can demand a court or jury trial on the issue of whether he or she is gravely disabled. This right also applies in subsequent proceedings to reestablish conservatorship. Welf & I C §5350(d). See §§23.76, 23.137.In an LPS trial the petitioner is held to a "beyond a reasonable doubt" burden of proof. Compare Waltz v Zumwalt (1985) 167 CA3d 835, 213 CR 529.

You can ask the public defender (PD) to offer to appoint you as your daughter's conservator, rather than a county official. The idea would be that if the PD requests a trial by jury, the county make balk, because this could all get very expensive. That would give you the possibility of a settlement under which you would be appointed conservator.

That's probably how I would strategize this, based upon your new info.

Hope this helps.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

`Sorry, that's already been done. Still don't have anything re. what she should say when called upon, or what and how to subpoena people, as she wants to be free and not conserved, She wants her liberty. She wants to vote. She wants to do everything a citizen can do. She doesn't trust the OC public defender and needs better counsel.


Do you have the list of what the defendant is allowed to do in this portion of the LPS trial?





Please tell me exactly what is scheduled for the next hearing. I doubt that it is a trial by jury, without a pretrial conference, but I will not longer assume anything in advance, because twice previously, my assumptions apparently have been incorrect.


Once I know exactly what this next hearing is about, I may be able to provide further direction.

Thanks in advance, for any clarification you may be able to provide.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

The trial by jury was either denied, or the PD never approached the bench. The PD said she would take care of it, but she lied, it seems. We are now scheduled for the 5350 conservator hearing without a jury and I would rather not testify before a judge who seems to be pre-disposed to the position of the petitioner. She bangs out 40 or 50 conservatorships from College Hospital alone twice a week. 80 to 100 a week! Never mind that the petitioner should be questionable, as the profit to the hospital is substantial (or to Mr. Weiss, the owner).


I fear the DA will file criminal charges against me, for being a pest (and a Jew) to hospital staff. A friend is facing criminal charges after his autistic boy was taken from him, He is a Russian immigrant and not used to Western style medicine, as they never had this luxury, People there used homeopathic remedies. A guy off the boat, whose English is very poor, should, IMO, be made to understand how he is expected to behave and not be called a "filthy Jew". My daughter also experiences this type of discrimination daily as she eats a kosher diet.


How much would you charge me to write some letters on you letter head:


1 - asking for a 2nd opinion? (Really a standing order to see her Dr.s which include her psycho-therapist), He does not make house calls. We the side affects of the inVega, the dyskenisia and akenisia are getting worse. The Dx should be PTSD and not schizo affective disorder.



2 - asking for a jury trial now.


Good morning. is a question and answer website. No one who works the legal categories here can write letters on your behalf. We "justanswer" questions about the law.

From your having attended the hearing, and having confirmed that my previous answers demonstrate that I actually know what I'm talking about, I can understand how you may now want to hire me to actually perform services on your daughter's behalf. Respectfully, XXXXX XXXXX cannot accommodate your request, because it is prohibited by the website policies.

I will be happy to continue to answer your questions, provided you provide a positive rating for my previous answers. But, that is the limit of what I can do in this forum.

I certainly understand your dilemma, and I would like to help, as best I can, but I can only do so as a "voice in the wilderness."

socrateaser, Lawyer
Category: Criminal Law
Satisfied Customers: 39169
Experience: Retired (mostly)
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