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Cat skid steer 259D it will go forward an reverse but it…

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Cat skid steer 259D...

Cat skid steer 259D it will go forward an reverse but it will not the move the arms it unlocks but moves just a little hooked a gauge to the pressure side of the dcv an only get 500 psi at full throttle would the accumulator being discharged cause that problem

Mechanic's Assistant: What is the complete model and serial number of your machine?

Cat0259dvftl14336

Submitted: 1 year ago.Category: Construction and Road Equipment
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Answered in 6 minutes by:
12/15/2020
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago
catmastertech
catmastertech, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 3,995
Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.
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Hello,

The accumulator is only used to maintain the pilot control pressure for engine stopped emergency lowering and smoother operation when flow is drawn away from the supply.

Have you checked for codes? Do you see any warning lights on when it does not work? Have you checked the door switch?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
No codes a. The door switch is fine I can get it to move just not by itselfWhat is the pressure supposed to be at the charge port
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

I think about 350 but, I will need to look at the manual.

How to you "make" it move?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
I can get it to move very little but will not pick itself upI'm talking about what's hydraulic pressure supposed to be at the control valve on the wall under the cabI only get 500psi at the hydraulic supply in the dcv
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

What are you calling the DCV?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Direction control valve located on the wall behind the cab
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

The pilot pressure should rise to 3100 ± 200 kPa (450 ± 30 psi).

The machine direction is controlled by the ECM.

The manual refers to that valve as the implement control valve.

I just want to be sure we are on the same page.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
is that at idle or full throttle
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

On the implement vale is the main relief.

Main Relief Valve setting is 23000 ± 172 kPa (3336 ± 25 psi) with a maximum setting of 25000 kPa (3626 psi).

All pressures should be checked at full throttle.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Ok at full throttle I get 500psi
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

I believe you are seeing standby pressure on the pump if this is a high flow machine.

The only way to test pilot control pressure is to tee into the line from the accumulator manifold.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
That's with control pulled back to liftwhat is the the port on the implement valve
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Pump supply pressure.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Ok what is that supposed to be
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

If you are actually stroking the pump to full load cutout, pressure should be 3336 psi.

I don't think you are signaling the pump or it is not moving the valve spools.

Have you checked the pump load signal pressure?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Why do I get movement on tilt
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Are you saying you are getting full movement on the tilt function?

Do you get high pressure when you stall a tilt function?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
It only will move about a inch at a time when going to full throttle
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Then it is possible the pilot control pressure is too low and it cannot move the valve spools. If the spools do not move, the pump will not get a load signal for upstroke. Movement must be enough to signal the pump.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Ok so where do I test pilot control pressure
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Is this a high flow machine?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
NoDo you have a Schematic
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Yes

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Can I see where the pilot control pressure is located
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Here is the schematic for the work tool (implement) hydraulics.

(see image below)

Below is the detail for the controls.

The piston pump for the hydrostatic system is mounted to the engine. The gear pump (6) for the work tools is mounted to the piston pump for the hydrostatic system. Gear pump (6) supplies the work tool hydraulic system with oil. When the engine speed increases, the speed of gear pump (work tool) (6) increases. The increased speed of the pump will move oil to the work tool hydraulic system. Control valve (work tool) (7) is an open center control valve.

The pilot oil for the work tool hydraulic system is supplied by the gear pump (charge oil) (5). The gear pump (charge oil) (5) is splined to the drive shaft of the gear pump (work tool) (6). Oil flows out of the gear pump (charge oil) (5) to the fan drive motor. The oil flows through the fan drive motor to the oil filter. From the oil filter, the oil flows to the piston pump for the hydrostatic system. At the piston pump, the hydraulic oil flows past the relief valve (charge) (12) and the valve (travel pilot ON/OFF solenoid) (13). Charge oil exits the hydrostatic piston pump and flows to the valve (implement pilot ON/OFF solenoid) (10). In order for the oil to flow to the control valve (work tool) (7), all three of the electronic interlocks must be disengaged. In order for oil to flow through the valve (implement pilot ON/OFF solenoid) (10), the hydraulic enable solenoid must be energized.

When the engine starts rotating, charge oil will supply the accumulator (11). The charge pump directs oil flow to the valve (implement pilot ON/OFF solenoid) (10). The oil flows downstream across a one-way flow check valve. The oil will flow directly to the accumulator (11). Oil will flow to the accumulator (11) with no electrical components energized. The charge oil will also flow to the valve (implement pilot ON/OFF solenoid) (10). When the valve (implement pilot ON/OFF solenoid) (10) is activated, oil will be directed to the control valve (work tool) (7). The electrohydraulic control lever for the hydraulic work tool must be activated to a desired position in order to activate the solenoid valve. Once the solenoid valve is activated the charge oil shifts the control spool to the desired position. Once any control spools shift, the high-pressure oil from the gear pump (work tool) (6) will flow to the selected circuit. Relief valve (charge) (12) maintains the pressure for the charge oil.

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Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Is the engine fan turning normally?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Haven't checked that I will tomorrow
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

The pump that send the oil for pilot also make the pressure for the hydrostatic charge oil. The machine would not move correctly if this was not working so, we can assume the pump is making the pressure. It just doesn't seem to move the valve spools.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
CorrectIf the accumulator lost its nitrogen charge would that cause a problem
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Here is where the manual show to test for pilot pressure.

I have heard of this before but, I did not get to make the repair so, I must reference the manual for help.

The accumulator is only used to maintain the pilot control pressure for engine stopped emergency lowering and smoother operation when flow is drawn away from the supply.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Ok the test port at p on that diagram I get 500psi at full throttle
Customer reply replied 1 year ago
on the valve diagram where it says p on the bottom what does that test
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

These are the details for testing the charge pressure.

Test Procedure
Engage the parking brake. Stop the engine.
Block the tracks/tires of the machine.
Release the hydraulic pressure. Refer to Testing and Adjusting, "System Pressure - Release" for the proper procedure.
Raise the cab. refer to Operation and Maintenance Manual, "Cab Tilting" for tilting procedure.
Install one Tooling B1 to the charge pressure test port (1) with one Tooling B4.
Install one Tooling B1 to the work tool pilot pressure circuit port (2) with one Tooling B4.
Secure the two hydraulic lines so that the pressure gauges can be viewed by the operator during the test. The hoses should not be pinched when the cab is lowered.
Lower the cab.
Sit in the operator seat. Fasten the seat belt and lower the armrest.
Start the engine. Disengage the parking brake.
Run the engine at LOW idle. Record the charge pressure and the pilot pressure.
Run the engine at HIGH idle. Record the charge pressure and the pilot pressure. If the pilot pressure is not within specifications, refer to Testing and Adjusting, "Hydrostatic System - Test and Adjust".
Note: If no pilot pressure is recorded, the pilot shut off valve for the work tool may not be functioning correctly.
Reduce the engine to LOW idle. Stop the engine.
Release the hydraulic pressure. Refer to Testing and Adjusting, "System Pressure - Release" for the proper procedure.
Raise the cab. Remove the test equipment.
Lower the cab.
Remove the track/wheel blocks.

P = implement pump system pressure.

Tooling list.

Required Tools

Table 2

Required Tools

Tool Item Qty Part No Description

A (###) ###-####Digital Pressure Indicator Gp

A A1 1(###) ###-####Digital Indicator

A21(###) ###-####Pressure Sensor Gp
(0 to 41,368 kPa (0 to 6,000 psi))

A31(###) ###-####Adapter Cable As

B B1 1 8T-0855 Pressure Gauge
(0 TO 4,000-KPA (0 TO 580-PSI))

B21 6V-3989 Fitting

B32 6V-4143 Quick Connect Coupler

B41(###) ###-####Hose As (4.3 M (14 FT))

F F1 1 6V-3965 Fitting (TEST)

F21 7X-2444 Swivel Tee

F31 6V-5049 O-Ring Seal

F41 3J-1907 O-Ring Seal

Test pressure specs

Pilot system Pressure Specifications Oil Temperature Range
50° ± 10°C (122° ± 18°F)

Charge Pressure LOW 2750 ± 200 kPa (400 ± 29 psi)

Charge Pressure HIGH 3200 ± 250 kPa (464 ± 36 psi)

Pilot Pressure for Work Tool LOW 2750 ± 200 kPa (400 ± 29 psi)

Pilot Pressure for Work Tool HIGH 3200 ± 250 kPa (464 ± 36 psi)

Since this machine is not high flow, it will not have a signal pressure to worry about. This is using the charge pump to supply the hydrostatic pump and to create the pilot pressure. That is why it has two test points.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
I need to check the pilot pressureAn that's in the hydrostatic pumpThank you for your time I will be doing these test tomorrow
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

This pressure is not created in the hydrostatic pump. It is used by the hydrostatic pumps for charge pressure (supply). The same pressure is used by the fan and the implement valve for pilot pressure.

The flow is from the fan pump, to the fan, to the filter, then to the hydrostatic pump for charge pressure and then to the two speed and pilot on/off manifold (with the accumulator) then to the implement valve.

NOTE, the charge pressure relief valve is in the hydrostatic pump.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
there are three test ports in the top of the hydrostatic pump one for the left side then one for the right an the other port is pilot pressure correct
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Charge pressure is at the pump, the actual pilot pressure is at the valve.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Ok I get 250psi at that portAn the fan does turn but very slow
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Test pressure specs

Pilot system Pressure Specifications Oil Temperature Range
50° ± 10°C (122° ± 18°F)

Charge Pressure LOW 2750 ± 200 kPa (400 ± 29 psi)

Charge Pressure HIGH 3200 ± 250 kPa (464 ± 36 psi)

Pilot Pressure for Work Tool LOW 2750 ± 200 kPa (400 ± 29 psi)

Pilot Pressure for Work Tool HIGH 3200 ± 250 kPa (464 ± 36 psi)

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Ok so at this point it's telling me the pump isn't working correctly
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

The charge pressure is low at low idle and high idle.

Probable Cause

  • There is a leak in the system.

     

  • There is a restriction between the hydrostatic piston pump and the implement and charge pump stack.

     

  • Drive motor flushing valve stuck open.

     

  • Drive motor brake piston seal damage.

     

  • The charge relief valve is out of adjustment.

     

  • The charge pump is worn.

     

  • The fan motor case drain has excessive leakage.
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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Where is the charge pump stack
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

It is the middle section between the hydro pumps.

That doesn't give us that muck trouble.

Since the fan speed is slow, I would focus at that issue first.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Ok so where do I start on fan speed
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Do you see a case drain line on the fan motor?

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Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Not all do but, I think the D models have it.

Run this line to a bucket to see if it is pouring oil out when it is running.

If it is, try to cap the line and test the charge pressure again.

If pressure returns, the motor may be bypassing internally.

If the pressure is still low, the charge pump may be weak.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
At idle I have 400 psi
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

You said earlier you had 250

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
That was the pilot on the hydrostatic pump I'm plugged to the fan motor
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

The pressures should be the same. It comes from the same pump.

Have you tried reading the pressure at the pilot shutoff valve?

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Where is this located
Customer reply replied 1 year ago
I need to put a t in-line an hook to gaugeswhat does the accumulator on the top side of the block do
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

You could dead head the line. The relief is the charge pressure relief.

It is the pilot pressure accumulator.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
there are three pressure lines on it one come from the hydrostatic pump to block the second one goes to a drive motor on the tracks an the top one goes the implement valve
Customer reply replied 1 year ago
The sensor on the top is the one that runs to implement valve
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

Yes.

One from the hydro pump (charge pressure)

one to the implement valve (pilot pressure)

one to the travel motor (two speed)

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
I can pull the line that goes to implement an test the pressure
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

No, that would be after the valve. It may work but, it may read low.

I want to know the pressure of the oil going to the valve from the charge relief.

(hydro pump)

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
Ok I will have to order some fittingsDo you know what size t fitting I need
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

I am not sure. This is not a listed test, just something to help narrow this down.

If your earlier test was on the correct port, I would suspect a plugged filter.

Have you changed the filter? It is the only thing between the fan port and the charge port.

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Customer reply replied 1 year ago
No sir but I will get that also
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 1 year ago

That is the only thing I think we have missed. It might be an easy fix if that is the only think wrong.

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