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Catmaster? I have Cat 725 articulated dump truck with serial…

Hi Catmaster? I have Cat 725...

Hi Catmaster?
I have Cat 725 articulated dump truck with serial B1L01617, the engine does not crank or start. The first time I connect AT, I got this errors:
Transmission: 590-2, 650-5, 718-13.
C11 725: 261-13, 296-12.I then updated the transmission flash file to the latest flash file (4485324). Immidiately after flash file update, the ET could not see the engine ECM again.
Please what could b the problem?

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Answered in 5 hours by:

2/7/2019

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

catmastertech, Technician

Category: Construction and Road Equipment

Satisfied Customers: 3,950

Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.

Verified

Hello,

With all those data link related codes, I would suspect a harness has some serious damage.

That would explain the loss of communication with the engine ECM.

No monitor codes? Is it working? I have one that goes stupid when I connect ET but, works fine otherwise? Still don't know the issue with that one.

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

The engine is not starting or cranking.
There's no other code on the machine.
I fixed another machine ECM, then was able to see the engine ECM and transmission again, but I then flashed the transmission ECM again with the latest flash file, immidiately ET was not able to see the engine ECM just the same thing that happened with the first transmission ECM.
Major issue now is;
Why is the engine ECM disappearing immidiately after transmission ECM flash update?
What could cause the engine not to even crank prior to the engine disappearing?

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Are you saying you now have two trucks down?

Is your ET up-to-date and the firmware in your comm adapter current?

Can you send me the product status reports?

The engine cannot crank if it does not see the transmission is in neutral (for safety start). When the data link is down, no cranking is a common complaint.

Have you tried connecting directly to the engine ECM only? Are you using the copy configuration files separately for each truck and ECM and then uploading to the proper ECM?

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

No, am only working on one truck but using two transmission ECM so it's only one truck that's down.
Am using 2018A ET.
I'll safe the status report and send to you.

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Ok, thanks

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

I have revised the transmission fash file back to a lower version( ), ET can now recognise the transmission & Engine ECM again but I can't see the monitor on ET. Is it supposed to be shown or seen on ET?
Troubleshooting error 650-5, where can I locate harness code plug in the machine?
Attach the product status report.

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Status Report did not come through.

This ECM does not use code plugs, that was only on older versions and the 650-5 diagnostic code is likely caused by using the wrong software.

The serial number posted does not show in the service software file list, it may be a different serial number.

ET is used to communicate to the monitors on machines after serial number B1L00505 and higher. This is the monitor with the larger display. the older version required the 4C-8195 control box to view codes in the display.

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

Attach the status report.
The machine serial number is ***** Engine number is *****
The current flash file I used on the transmission ECM is(###) ###-####
Thanks

B1L01617_PSRPT_2019-02-0...pdfB1L0161...pdf

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

I am not sure this is the issue but, the Product ID appears wrong. It looks like a lower case L is used instead of 1. Change the value to B1L01617 and see what happens.

I would also match the transmission file(###) ###-####to the engine's latest file(###) ###-####and see if that will keep both communicating.

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

Okay, I'll try as advice tommorow and revert back.
Also, ET is not communicating with the monitor, is cool for this serial? If yes, Can non communication of monitor cause no engine cranking or starting?

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

I am not sure if it will prevent starting but, it could affect the system. Try disconnecting it and see if anything happens?

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

I've disconnected it earlier, there was no additional error code raised on ET, I reconnected it and there weren't any additional error raised.

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

OK, thanks. I am not sure but, it may only be a read-only unit working from the machine transmission ECM. I believe that is true for the older units but, I am not sure about the newer version. If you have the messenger monitor, that was a whole different issue and we had lots of trouble from them. Many would lock-up and not work but, at least they could read fault codes easier.

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

One more thing.
I noticed earlier that on turning the ignition key to on position, this code flashes:(###) ###-####before the monitor will go off. Is that an error code?

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

No, that is the software file in the monitor. It looks like it is a read-only display, I don't believe it has any functions to affect engine or transmission control.

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

Ok as advice, I'll change the value of the product I'D and also flash the latest engine flash file then will revert to you.
Thanks.

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Thanks, ***** ***** me posted. This one is very interesting.

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

Ive change the ID to the corect number, the transmission status can now be well seen.
Also have updated the engine flash file with(###) ###-####but still engine can not crank or start.Code 590-2 Is still active.
I've checked on data link wire Between the two ECM and they all okay..I startd the engine directly from the starter motor and drove the truck out but the rpm is going up and down automatically
The problem now remain that 590-2 is still active.
Can not start from the ignition key,
Lastly, the engine rpm is not stable (going up and down)
Attached updated status report.

B1L01617_PSRPT_2019-02-0...pdfB1L0161...pdf

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

The first thing I noticed is the engine is showing a security system is installed. Is this correct? If so, that system must be corrected to allow starting. This is weird to me though as most CAT systems will allow cranking but the engine will not run. This machine does not even show one offered from CAT.

If this data is incorrect, change the configuration to "uninstalled" or "unavailable".

Also, much of the data is corrupt for the histogram and totals. The values are off the scale and total tattletale is showing 11882 changes.

I would try downloading an ECM replacement file from another 725 and then upload the data without changing the important information (serial number FLS FTS etc.)

Lastly, try to complete the engine timing calibration to see if the engine speed will settle down.

Use the status screen to verify the engine pressures and temperatures are in the correct operating range.

Did you say you had swapped the ECM with a different truck and this truck did not change? Did you install this ECM into another truck and did it work correctly?

If the problem still appears to show the 590-02 code, try fabricating your own data link wires with the correct twist for data link cables.

Did you verify the data link wires do not have shorts to ground or battery?

Is the charging system working correctly? Overcharging can cause an ECM to shutoff and restart rapidly and damage the ECM.

Below is the transmission serial number that should also be programmed but, I don't think it will have any effect on this issue but, worth having in the ECM.

Also, the details for the data link test mention the ECM serial number. While this engine ECM will match to the updated parts, it does not appear to be the original.

I don't think it is a big issue unless it is physically different. Is it fuel cooled or not? Should it be cooled and did someone remove it? Just a thought!

Let me know what you find, I hope this is being helpful.

JRH03801 TRANSMISSION & DRIVE LINE
RSX07651 ENGINE
T1K03163 TC, TD, RETARDER

MID 027 CID 0590 FMI 02
Conditions Which Generate This Code:
This failure results in codes that are logged against an ECM that can not be explained. The Transmission/Chassis ECM cannot communicate with the Engine ECM or the ECM appears to work intermittently.
Test Step 1. VERIFY THE HARDWARE AND THE SOFTWARE PART NUMBERS.

Verify that the following information is correct:
The part number of the software for the Transmission/Chassis ECM
The part number of the "engine ECM software"
The part number of the Transmission/Chassis ECM
The part number of the engine ECM
Note: Consult the Business Unit that produces the product for the correct part numbers of the configuration software.

Expected Result:

All part numbers are correct.

Results:

OK - All part numbers are correct. Proceed to test step 2.
NOT OK - All part numbers are NOT correct. The part number of the Transmission/Chassis ECM may be incorrect. The part number of the Engine ECM may be incorrect. The incorrect software for the ECM may also be installed.
Repair: Replace the incorrect ECM with an ECM that has the correct part number. Flash the correct and most current software. See Testing and Adjusting, "Electronic Control Module (ECM) - Flash Program".

STOP

Test Step 2. INSPECT THE HARNESS CONNECTIONS.

Turn the disconnect switch to the OFF position.
Inspect all harness connections that are related to the Cat Data Link. Make sure that the connectors are clean and tight.
Check the connectors for proper mating.
Check the wires at the connector.
Check each wire for nicks or signs of abrasion in the insulation.
Check for moisture at the connector.
Check the connectors for dirty contacts or corroded contacts.
Check each pin and each socket of the machine harness connectors.
Expected Result:

The machine harness connectors are tight and free of corrosion.

Results:

OK - The machine harness connectors are tight and free of corrosion. Proceed to test step 3.
NOT OK - The machine harness connectors are in need of repair.
Repair: Repair the machine harness or replace the machine harness.

STOP

Test Step 3. CHECK FOR SHORTS TO GROUND.

The disconnect switch remains in the OFF position.
Disconnect the machine harness from all electronic control modules that use the Cat Data Link.
At the machine harness for the Transmission/Chassis ECM, measure the resistance between frame ground and connector contacts J1-10 (wire 893-GN(Green)) and J1-20 (wire 892-BR(Brown)) of the Cat Data Link circuit .
Expected Result:

The resistance is greater than 5 ohms.

Results:

OK - The resistance is greater than 5000 ohms. The harness circuit resistance is correct. Proceed to test step 4.
NOT OK - The resistance is less than 5000 ohms. The machine harness has failed.
Repair: There is a short between frame ground and the Cat Data Link circuit in the machine harness. Repair the machine harness or replace the machine harness.

STOP

Test Step 4. CHECK FOR A SHORT TO THE +BATTERY CIRCUIT.

The disconnect switch remains in the OFF position.
All related electronic control modules remain disconnected from the machine harness.
At the machine harness connector for the Transmission/Chassis ECM, perform the checks that are listed here:
Measure the resistance between the connector contact J1-31 (wire 111-RD(Red)) and connector contact J1-10 (wire 893-GN(Green)).
Measure the resistance between connector contact J1-31 (wire 111-RD(Red)) and connector contact J1-20 (wire 892-BR(Brown)).
Expected Result:

The resistance is greater than 5.0 ohms.

Results:

OK - The harness circuit resistance is correct. Proceed to test step 5.
NOT OK - The resistance is less than 5.0 ohms. The machine harness has failed.
Repair: There is a short between the +battery circuit and the Cat Data Link circuit in the machine harness. Repair the machine harness or replace the machine harness.

STOP

Test Step 5. CHECK FOR A OPEN HARNESS.

The disconnect switch remains in the OFF position.
All related electronic control modules remain disconnected from the machine harness.
Check the continuity of the Cat Data Link circuit in the machine harness:
Measure the resistance between connector contact J1-10 (wire 893-GN(Green)) of the Transmission/Chassis ECM and connector contact J1-8 (wire 893-GN(Green)) of the engine ECM.
Measure the resistance between connector contact J1-20 (wire 892-BR(Brown)) of the Transmission/Chassis ECM and connector contact J1-9 (wire 892-BR(Brown)) of the engine ECM.
Expected Result:

The resistance measures less than 5 ohms.

Results:

OK - The resistance is less than 5 ohms. The CAT data link circuit in the machine harness is correct. Proceed to test step 6.
NOT OK - The resistance is greater than 5 Ohms. The machine harness has failed.
Repair: The Cat Data Link circuit is open in the machine harness. Repair the machine harness or replace the machine harness.

STOP

Test Step 6. CHECK FOR ADDITIONAL DIAGNOSTIC CODES FOR THE OTHER ELECTRONIC CONTROL MODULES.

Reconnect all the electronic control modules that use the Cat Data Link.
Turn the disconnect switch and the key start switch to the ON position.
After each of the electronic control modules has been reconnected, check the Event List for diagnostic codes that are logged against the electronic control module.
Expected Result:

Diagnostic codes are not present for the other electronic control modules (ECM) in the event list.

Results:

OK - Diagnostic codes are NOT present for the other electronic control modules (ECM).
Repair: The engine ECM has failed. It is unlikely that the ECM has failed. Exit this procedure. Perform this procedure again. If the failure is not found, replace the ECM.

STOP

NOT OK - Diagnostic codes are present for the other electronic control modules (ECM).
Repair: The Transmission/Chassis ECM has failed. It is unlikely that the ECM has failed. Exit this procedure. Perform this procedure again. If the failure is not found, replace the ECM. Refer to Testing and Adjusting, "Electronic Control Module (ECM) - Replace".

STOP

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

I've change the security system configuration to unavailable.I dont have any other 725 around to copy the configuration of switch the ECM.
Please can you send me any 725 configuration if u have any?I've followed the troubleshooting guideline and measurement and values seems okay.

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

I don't know if this will work but here is an old file. Be sure to UNCHECK the data that is correct on your ECM. I don't know if this will fix the issues but, it is an easy try if it works.

59eb6c05-5035-45ae-bc7b-...zip59eb6c0...zip

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

I check on my system and got one saved configuration I save 2 years ago when I first the truck. I've programmed it on the machine and the engine can noe crank and start normal though 590-2 still available.
Thanks.The problem now is the fluctuation of the engine rpm or running rough.Can you guide me specifically on this my engine on how to run the engine speed timing calibration.
I've not done it before.
Thanks

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Ok, this is a difficult task at best. You will need to install a timing probe in the engine at a specific location and with the engine turned to a specific rotation or you will destroy the tool. (NOTE: even the slightest damage will destroy the probe. They are not expensive but, cost enough you do not want to replace too many.)

Your engine should have a two pin connector on the J1 or J2 connector near the ECM. This is the point to connect the timing probe. Skip the parts about installing the harness.

I use a cheap borescope camera to verify I have found the timing notch of the crankshaft throw. Once there, I then turn the engine a little further and set my probe within 2mm of it. Too far away and it will not read, too close and it will be hit and damaged. Only finger tighten the probe adapter so it can move some, you may need to slide it in slightly for it to read the notch properly.

Follow the attached instructions for more detail.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WeDypYcjAhhO04vJFcza5LVSxgmDFf5S

Customer reply replied 3 years ago

Following the calibrating procedure, "the engine must not have any other diagnostic code except engine timing calibration ".
There where still other codes "590-2, 718-13", which where stopping the engine calibration.
Also the engine rpm was going high and low.
I went back to the troubleshooting of error 590-2. Opened the J2 engine ECM connector, found some liquid and then dried it up, connected back to ET and error 590-2 was not found again. Kick started from egnition key and the truck engine started and was then running very smooth.
Calibrated the transmission, then error 718-13 went off too.
The only remaining error is 261-13 which I'll carry out the speed timing calibration by next week once I receive the probe. But for now, ill keep the truck running with the 261-13 code. What do you think?
Thanks.

Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Awesome find! Isn't water amazing!

I have not seen this but, I was told the engine will derate after 100 hours if the timing calibration is not performed.

Beyond that, I couldn't say it will hurt anything.

Thanks for the update.

Don

catmastertech, Technician

Category: Construction and Road Equipment

Satisfied Customers: 3,950

Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.

Verified

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