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I'm a case construction equipment mechanic but i have a

I'm a case construction...

I'm a case construction equipment mechanic but i have a customer with a Cat TH83 telehandler earlier serial number, 3RN02345. it won't start from the key switch and I've traced most of the wires and the poblem seems to be the starter relay/solenoid part no.(###) ###-####there are two of them mounted on the engine and both get power but one sends power to the starter solenoid on the starter the other sends power to the fuel shutoff on the engine?. One of the relays is closed in it current state and one is open but both same part number. I can jump the starter relay terminals and start the engine so I know the starter solenoid on the starter is fine and the key switch is fine also, I tested it. The cat dealership here in town won't give our dealership the wiring schematic, so I would like to know what sensor opens and closes the starter relay(green and black wires), what sensor opens and closes the other relay by the same part number (purple and black wires), and should the start relay be normally open or normally closed? As the one relay for starter is currently open and the other one beside it is currently closed?

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Yes the two relays are in the same state whether the key switch is on or off so I know one is bad as they are the same part number but I want to test the lead wires and sensors that activate those 2 relays as well.

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Answered in 7 hours by:
10/9/2018
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago
catmastertech
catmastertech, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 3,994
Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.
Verified

Hello,

I am sorry no one could help you earlier. I hope this is not too late to be helpful. All experts are not employees, we work from home in our spare time to answer questions and like most places, this is a busy time for everyone.

The Start relay is the one with the Green and Black control leads. The other relay is Cold Start Relay for the air inlet heater. Neither of these should be on all the time when the key is on. The Cold Start relay may stay on for ten minutes to pre-heat the intake air but it should switch off if the ambient air is warm.

Look closer at the wires, they should be marked. The start relay is controlled by the green wire numbered 306. The black wire is marked 200 and is a chassis ground.

This wire goes back to the neutral start relay under the seat. The orange wire on the opposite side of the relay is marked 307 and is from the key switch. However, these do not connect until the yellow 330 wire has power from the shift lever (pin 7) and then it will close the neutral start relay for cranking.

A common failure is the shift lever and it is likely it has failed and not send power to the neutral start relay.

catmastertech
catmastertech, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 3,994
Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.
Verified
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Customer reply replied 3 years ago
Shift lever pin seven, got it will check that in the morning thank you. I got as far as, it could be a neutral safety switch or even a bad trans controller and trans solenoids today by reading forums. This customer always wants me to fix their machines but they don't realize we are a Case IH dealer and don't have access to bobcat/Cat schematics but this guy always wants me to fix his cats and bobcats for some reason.
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Time to charge a book to him behind his back if he is too tight to order one himself. Call it "miscellaneous expenses"! Today's machines are too complex to know or even stay on top of all the components that work even the simplest start functions. Just remember he is using you because he won't pay the CAT service rates! Don't let him make you feel you are costing him too much as he is just saving a fortune but using the other dealer rates.

Thanks for the positive rating, I am glad I could help. If you need further assistance, please let me know. I will be glad to help as much as I can.

Thanks again, Don

CATMASTERTECH

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Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Sorry, the schematic is the intellectual property of Caterpillar and is copyrighted. That is why this site and the dealer cannot give you a copy. If you want a copy, you must purchase it from CAT. However, I can help you with this. Attached is an image of the connectors.

If you will clean the harnesses and remove some of the tape, you should find the yellow wire marked 330. The connectors also have numbers at the pins if you can get a good angle to see them. It is just a slightly raised mark but, it is there.

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Customer reply replied 3 years ago
I rushed in asking you that question, i was going to call it quits cause it was starting tonrain and then it stoooed so i kept going. I didnt get to start on the machine yesterday until 5:10pm and i had a hell of a time getting the covers off enough to get at the harness for the shifter, i did see the raised bump numbers on the back of the "duetsch"?? plugs. I think those are the old style duetsch connectors. I read you previous message and saw that you called out wire 307 on the shifter side so i was thinking "im a dummy", so i checked all the wires in the harness for power and nothing had more than . 200 volts and a couoke of wires had . 100 or less, i found both 307 orange wires and where it turns into 330 yellow and i checked continuity to the pin on the realy just to make sure it was connected there too. Next item would be which wire provides power into the shifter and where does that come from? (i didnt see a red wire or can any color on Cat be hot) Case only sends power on white and red wires for main power or supply power 12/24v and then signal, activation, reference and switched power can all be different colors. Does the power come from battery or xmsn? Im not sure where to look next. Also i replaced the relay with a new one just to eliminate it, i had it before and didnt have a relay cand hecker with me and just using my power probe can be a a pain and doesn't really show you if the relay is sticking or after it warms up does it stick open or close. I also replaced the neutral start switch/solenoid on the engine but the new one was the same. my parts guy had already ordered them. I also heard that the transmission control module fails quite often on these but then it should start but not move which i can force it into that situation by jumping the switch side of the neutral start switch solenoid but then im still not getting power to the neutral relay under the seat so then it isnt sending power to the xmsn? To engage the shift, forward, reverseve and specific solenoids on the xmsn so my machine won't move, and im sure if i dug hard enough i could find it but can you tell me if i can use a power probe to put 12v to a soecific point like wire 330 yellow to activate the trans and drive it inside without fully fixing it first, i have to work on the machine out in the rain at the moment, which its supoosed to rain for like the next week and it's getting down to freezing here so sometimes im working under the poly tarp and covering the dash and controls each night before i can leave. If i could drive it inside then i could let it dry out some and let me dry out some too. Thanks again for all your help and sorry to hit you with such a long letter while your sleeping and dropoing it on younright when you eake up.
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

When looking at CAT schematics, the color is only for the type of circuit. The two blue wires are just for the Key switch On circuit. The last two letters are the color of the wire.

This machine that is pink (PK) and is powered from the neutral fuse of the fuse panel. The wires are also number for types of circuits. 100's are power feeds. 200's are grounds but some are floating grounds. 300's are starting circuits. (except 321 is the backup alarm) 700's are transmission circuits. 900's are return circuits (like floating grounds)

The shift must be powered to work if you get the power back to the shifter that may solve your issues. Usually, when the shifter fails, it will not start or move so be sure to get the power back first and then check the 330 yellow wire to see if it is powering the neutral start relay. (which in turn controls the start relay and which controls the starter motor relay)

It is difficult to power these solenoids as you must power two to engage the transmission. A direction clutch and a speed clutch must be powered to engage a drive gear.

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Customer reply replied 3 years ago
if i lost power to shifter and there is no power at the neutral fuse what do think would be the next rabbit to chase? Bad connections at fuse panel or does the fuse panel run directly of a 60 amp on the backside of the engine like on a Gehl or on a I-R VR 10XX-C. is there a hidden fuse in the harness between battery and fuse block, i have power to some things on fuse panel but not others so im leaning towards bad connectiins i just dont want to have to bother you today while im out in the cold fixing stuff, i can just jump from the fuse panel to the next issue at hand. it started snowing last night thats why im up i was installing some larger diameter slant piping off my sump outlet and my next door neighbors, Bringing garden hoses inside and civering hoses faucets with insulated covers. The Neutral fuse would be a N with a gear around it right? This fuse panel doesnt number them just a picture of symbols on the back of the plate cover. If i directly feed 12v to the out wire coming from the neutral fuse would that power the transmission or let it power the neutral circuit and then hope that the trans contiller circuit is fine and powers on? (If the problem isnt the shifter having failed) like if i have a good shifter just not getting power to it because of bad connections at fuse panel and i privide 12vc to the neutral fuse at fuse panel or jumo from another 12vc fuse would that send my shifter power and neutral start power, and the starter power and the start machine and pray the transmission works? Lol
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Sorry I could not reply earlier I was leaving this morning and saw your post so, I made a quick reply to try and help you.

That row of fuses is powered only when the key switch is on by a wire from the main relay.

I remember the breaker but, it is not shown on the schematic. CAT usually has a high amperage breaker for the battery feed and usually one that prevents alternator shorts if you have a failure. The schematic shows the battery feeds to the fuse panel B+ fuses are directly from either the starter B+ post or the alternator B+ post.

I believe the transmission neutral fuse for the shifter is the bottom fuse of the third row in the middle panel. The book has some bad images so, I can't be certain. The icon looks like a gear with a lock pawl in it.

This fuse is powering the transmission shifter and a set of safety lockouts to prevent the transmission engagement. It could also prevent starting but, these are wired back and forth for the safety control. Really weird setup and hard to explain and too difficult to get a usable image to help.

I did find this detail that describes the parking brake and how the transmission safety neutralizing relay works and troubleshooting for it. See below. Attached image is for this testing information.

Park Brake Switch Operation

The characteristics of the system are listed below.

•1. Cut the supply to the transmission when the park brake is engaged.

•2. Supply the transmission when the parking brake is disengaged and when the transmission is in neutral.

•3. Cut the supply to the transmission when the park brake is disengaged and the transmission is in gear.

Note: Once the set coil is energized, the position of the relay contact is not affected by the removal of the supply. The set coil will remain closed until the reset coil is energized.

Note: It is important to note that the start switch must be in the ON position.

The following conditions describe the different operations of the park brake switch.

•The park brake is engaged.

•The transmission is in neutral.

•Reset coil (A) is energized by the park brake switch.

•Reset coil (A) opens contact on the latching relay, which cuts supply to the transmission.

Condition 2

•The park brake is disengaged.

•The transmission is in neutral.

•The set coil (B) is energized by the other park brake switch.

•The set coil (B) closes contact on the latching relay which allows supply to the transmission.

•Set coil (B) is supplied by the 330 yellow wire from the neutral start switch.

•The park brake is disengaged with the transmission in gear.

•The transmission is not in neutral, so the neutral start switch is open and no supply is available for yellow 330.

•The supply to the transmission is cut.

•The park brake is engaged.

•The transmission is in gear or in neutral.

•The reset coil (A) is energized by the park brake switch.

•The reset coil (A) opens contact on the latching relay, which cuts supply to the transmission.

Troubleshooting the Park Brake Switch

Note: This electrical troubleshooting list is not a comprehensive guide. This list gives a good starting point to diagnosing a problem.

Note: The start switch must be in the ON position and the engine not running. The transmission neutralizer switch must be in the OFF position and the shift lever in the NEUTRAL position with the parking brake disengaged.

1.Move the shift lever to the FORWARD position. Check the supply at the transmission solenoids for each gear. Check the ground wires. Repeat this step for REVERSE.

YES - has a faulty solenoid(s)

NO - go to step 2

2.Check the supply at the control lever (766 - GN).

YES - faulty lever

NO - go to step 3

3.Check for supply at terminal 2 of transmission neutralizer switch.

YES - faulty switch

NO - go to step 4

4.Check for supply at terminal 5 of latching relay and check that relay is set (red flag is shown).

YES - faulty relay

NO - Check fuse 28, if okay go to step 5

5.Check fuse 28 and check supply at terminal 3 on the park brake switch (return lever to neutral)

YES - faulty park brake switch

NO - go to step 6

6.Check for supply 126 at gear lever.

YES - faulty lever

NO - check fuse 28, if okay go to step 7

7.Check for ground on terminal 13 of latching relay.

YES - faulty relay

NO - repair the ground

If the system is not neutralizing when it should, check the following:

1.Check the supply at terminal 2 of the park brake switch with the brake engaged.

NO - check fuse 28, if it is okay - faulty switch

YES - go to step 2

2.Check for supply at terminal 14 of the latching relay. If okay, check for ground at terminal 9 of latching relay.

YES - faulty relay

NO - repair ground

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Customer reply replied 3 years ago
I was out there for a couple of hours today, thanks this troubleshooting will really help, I removed the mounting screw for the fuse panel, it's the big one and was so rusted that head was stripped out, i chiseled it out and as soon I removed that mounting screw I had voltage at every fuse on the fuse panel and on one fuse was 12.06 all the rest were 12.27 or close, I'm guessing that was a grounding screw for the fuse panel, I still don't have power at the shifter still but this trouble shooting guide will help me identify where to look next. The shifter wire 0330 has less than one volt. I'm guessing a bad connection somewhere because all my fuses have voltage so I figuring it's a broken wire or bad connection but the harness leaves from Under the seat to under the cab and then under the engine and up the frame but that's where I lose it, but then find it under the dash where they go to the shifter but like I said no power there. I told my boss regardless I'm going to use my power probe and apply battery voltage to 330 yellow behind the fuse. That should send power into the shifter and I will see if it turns anything else on. I'll go through this trouble shooting guide tomorrow also bringing another technician with me so he can learn how to trouble shoot solenoids and check for voltage drop and amp draw. I couldn't believe that one rusted ass screw was causing enough of and interruption to take power away from multiple fuses or screw with their voltage reading when each circuit should have an engine ground or chassis ground also. I'm almost there, i can hear this thing purring tomorrow, I just hope it shifts lol. Again thanks for all your help. I'll let you know what I find out.
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Great, it sounds like you are trimming down the issues. Just note the 330 yellow is power from the shifter to the relay to control the switch and allow starting power to flow through the relay to the starter relay beside the engine.

Getting power on the pink 126 wire to the shifter may fix the 330 yellow power issue.

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Customer reply replied 3 years ago
Yep thank you, ***** ***** exactly where it is on the machine and I have them tagged for easy ID. You have been an awesome help on this case. This old machine has seen better days but still has life in her If I can get it operable. I had it running a few times by jumping the switch but I would prefer that not be the only way to start it. I'll let you k ow tomorrow what I find, I think were Almost there, just a few more wires and connections to check maybe a few solenoids to check. I hope I have been an easy customer, I've only bee a diesel tech for 2 years in the real world, I was a maintenance supervisor and a shop foreman, senior tech and maintenance control Sergeant for 8 years in the army but that was just a skilled parts changer for a few months and then leadership positions managing. I was infantry and special forces before that and got injured pretty badly had 3 hip surgeries and a back surgery and now I'm medically retired and 99% disabled by the VA. My first week as a tech for this company I called on of my troops who is from about 3 hours away in the same state and asked him how long did it take him to realize the army didn't really teach us nothing about In Depth diagnosis of electronics, hydraulics, and sure as hell didn't teach us about bernoulli's principle or archimedes or pascal , I've learned more in two years as a tech at my company than I ever learned in the army. My company loves sending us to school and we go at least 1-2 times a year. I've been to five schools in 2 years and I special school, I am a Schwartz certified repair tech and I'm the only one for the whole state and some of Canada bI'm going to Racine Wisconsin next week for G series Case loader school but I've been working on them for a year already since they came out and I love these new loaders, easy to diagnose just hard to get at the part to change it. I'll hit you up tomorrow have a good night, thanks again Master.
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Thank you for your service. I was USAF and was trained for heavy equipment. I had one assignment stateside and it was a regular 7 to 4 job. The school they had was good but, just very basic. I learned a lot about older machines and engines but, like you said the diagnostics were weak. I worked for JI Case company for 3 years and have been to Racine twice. Got to see the 621 when it was introduced and the 7100 magnum tractor when it came out. Working for a CAT dealer has given me the best training but, now it is all going online and it is just not the same as hands-on with an engineer.

Regards, Don

CATMASTERTECH

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Customer reply replied 3 years ago
I should have told you in the beginning this machine is close to being condemned, after voltage was restored to fuse panel checked fuse #28 had low voltage, Che ked Park brake switch and the pulled fuse, fuse was melted a tiny bit inside but still had connection for continuity and supplied voltage but couldn't carry a load, cleaned terminals in fuse block and replaced fuse, machine works, starts, runs, shifts and drives. Thanks again Don, I'll keep you in mind if I need help like this again.
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Glad to hear you have it fixed.

I live about 100 miles from the ocean and have seen some of these in terrible condition. They are getting so old now it is hard to find parts to keep them running.

Every machine I find today is in the same condition and no one has maintained a cab to keep the electrical dry. It is a shame as all the TH62, 63, 82, 83, and 103's were great machines.

Thanks again, Don

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Customer reply replied 3 years ago
This customers wrap was so corroded that it had slimy mold growing on it and you would touch it and the wrap would just slide right off. I had to use some corrosion spray and then some Deoxit cleaner and then protector/dielectric spray and a needle file to every fuse terminal and replace half the fuses as some had corroded a pin off one side of the fuse or was pretty close. Severely corroded electrical system, the plastic turn screw were broke for the fuse cover so I put a carriage bolt in it form the back and then retaining nut and mounting nut for the cover, and put weather stripping on the cover. The dash was miserable to put back together as all of the rubber grommet nuts were cross threaded so ripped them out and replaced with bolts and clip nuts. Had to repair every work light ground o. The machine as whomever I stalled it was a little over zealous with the crimpers and time+corrosion had the terminal ring cut off. The belly plate was just laying behind the seat and most of the mounting bolt holes on the frame were cross threaded, instead of cutting them all off and welding new nuts on frame I just rethreaded a few to get it mounted. I usually try to repair back to OEM but I would have to bill about a week to fix this thing. Hopefully I don't go out to fix this one again although I feel like I know it intimately now.
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Great effort to keep it running! Thanks for the update. If he has the bad luck of owning a new TH330 thru TH580 he will never lose sight of this TH83. It is much cheaper fixing these old rigs than trying to maintain the newer units as they are all electronic and have many of the same issues but at a much higher cost.

Good luck! Maybe he will buy a real wheel loader instead of keeping this machine. The higher cost of a wheel loader is often a better solution as the repairs will be almost none if he takes care of it.

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Customer reply replied 3 years ago
Most of the newer Cat THxxx machines I have had the erasure of working on are great, easy to service, nice electronics that are pretty easy to troubleshoot, good working hydraulics, and easy to get to filters, Batteries, etc. Had one that kept blowing heater fuses and took the seat out, cleaned all the garbage out and found a crushed red bull can had drained from behind seat and down into blower motor control board, replaced that which I can say even the enclosed cabs have painfully stupid dash, kick panel, wall, heater and arm rest covers and you have to put them in perfect order or you have to remove a few to get the one in you missed from them all overlapping.
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 3 years ago

Haven't had any A/C or heater work on them here. Seems they all went out to Cotton Gins and all they did was destroy the machine. Damaged cylinders, contaminated hydraulics and failed PHS valves to the point you can't get them anymore. Had to swap a few to solenoids and add the extra ECM to control it but, most have tried to move to the TL version and it hasn't faired any better. Axle failures and brake issues all the time and a cheap dash panel with wiring problems like the THxx. It seems CAT has just forgotten these machines and wouldn't lose sleep over shutting down the line.

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Customer reply replied 3 years ago
That's part of the reason CASE doesn't make them anymore, used to contract out production of their telehandlers but the stopped production in the early 2000's
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Tory Johnson, GMA Workplace Contributor, discusses work-from-home jobs, such as JustAnswer in which verified Experts answer people’s questions.
I will tell you that...the things you have to go through to be an Expert are quite rigorous.

What Customers are Saying:

Wonderful service, prompt, efficient, and accurate. Couldn't have asked for more. I cannot thank you enough for your help.

Mary C.Freshfield, Liverpool, UK

This expert is wonderful. They truly know what they are talking about, and they actually care about you. They really helped put my nerves at ease. Thank you so much!!!!

AlexLos Angeles, CA

Thank you for all your help. It is nice to know that this service is here for people like myself, who need answers fast and are not sure who to consult.

GPHesperia, CA

I couldn't be more satisfied! This is the site I will always come to when I need a second opinion.

JustinKernersville, NC

Just let me say that this encounter has been entirely professional and most helpful. I liked that I could ask additional questions and get answered in a very short turn around.

EstherWoodstock, NY

Thank you so much for taking your time and knowledge to support my concerns. Not only did you answer my questions, you even took it a step further with replying with more pertinent information I needed to know.

RobinElkton, Maryland

He answered my question promptly and gave me accurate, detailed information. If all of your experts are half as good, you have a great thing going here.

DianeDallas, TX

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Meet the Experts:

Curtis B.

Curtis B.

Technician

2,324 satisfied customers

Technican turned service manager with multiple lines of equipment and rental units.

Wayne

Wayne

Journeyman

1,298 satisfied customers

worked on many road graders, Bull dozers , skid steers, Rollers

Cat Man

Cat Man

Cat Engine Expert

578 satisfied customers

I am ASE Master Certified.

dieseldan55

dieseldan55

Mechanic

299 satisfied customers

Road Mechanic for Volvo Construction Equipment.

Chris (aka- Moose)

Chris (aka- Moose)

Technician

85 satisfied customers

24 years of experience diagnosing & repairing

Steve

Steve

Mechanic

42 satisfied customers

Heavy Equipment Mechanic for 25 years

JBFixxer

JBFixxer

Mechanic

22 satisfied customers

16+ years experience, hydraulics,hydrostatics, engines, fuel injection systems. And everything in between.

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Disclaimer: Information in questions, answers, and other posts on this site ("Posts") comes from individual users, not JustAnswer; JustAnswer is not responsible for Posts. Posts are for general information, are not intended to substitute for informed professional advice (medical, legal, veterinary, financial, etc.), or to establish a professional-client relationship. The site and services are provided "as is" with no warranty or representations by JustAnswer regarding the qualifications of Experts. To see what credentials have been verified by a third-party service, please click on the "Verified" symbol in some Experts' profiles. JustAnswer is not intended or designed for EMERGENCY questions which should be directed immediately by telephone or in-person to qualified professionals.

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