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This is in Ref to my last quast 966k C9.3so lon story short…

this is for catmastetec this...
this is for catmastetec this is in Ref to my last quast 966k C9.3so lon story short this unit is getting redy to go out on rent so cust calls me states the unit starts but will not move... i get ther today the moved it they said they had to keep the pedel on the floor and they said it felt like they wher driving thew the parking brake the unit has been used around the yard and has a t5 hrs on it since the repair. so now it will not start cranks over and stops long story short its hydro locked with coolent your thoughts
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Answered in 3 hours by:
7/20/2018
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago
catmastertech
catmastertech, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 3,996
Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.
Verified

The K series has been awful for most sizes. It seems like everyone has had an issue of some kind before reaching 10k hours.

I have had lost of issues with the park brake solenoid but it was a 980K steel mill version with an override. The last repair seems to point to rust build up under the valve causing it to warp and stick. Sometimes it would stick off and not release the brake and others it would stick on and not apply the brake.

As far as the engine goes, I have not had the problem my self but, many of the C9.3 engines have NOX cooler problems and some will allow coolant into the exhaust filling a cylinder. Some of those issues were blamed on the filling of the cooling system too quickly and air trapped in the NOX cooler leading to hotspot failure. We have begun a vacuum fill procedure in the shop to eliminate voids. In the field, we just fill it slowly to avoid air pockets. Some of the other issues were the day tank reservoir failures causing loss of coolant and overheating the NOX cooler.

Worst case could be a derate fault that they just ignored and burnt the engine NOX cooler to the point it cracked.

I would definitely do downloads of the ECM to record the damage before doing any work. Save the product status report, aftertreatment history and check for snapshots and download the latest to show what has happened. Save everything you can for evidence should this become a court case.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
What's the easiest way to test noxCooler
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

Pressure test the cooling system and if it is bad, the pressure will not hold on the system with no external leaks. Then remove the NOX bellows and inspect for coolant in the exhaust manifold or coolant residue in the EGR venturi.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
I have coollent i the charge air
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

That I have not seen on K loaders or C9.3 but, I have heard it could happen on the D8T C15 when a NOX cooler fails. Coolant someway made it around to the turbo boost airline and would cause buildup on the ARD air control valve. This caused binding and the butterfly valve would not close correctly and it slipped its position on the shaft creating and false setting. This caused the ECM to not control the air flow and we would get a Loss of Combustion error fault code. Since the air volume was wrong, it kept losing its flame.

Mainly it was at high-speed REGEN but would work fine at a parked REGEN.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Yep it was the cooler .. two things why did you say to download and save everything incase there this goes to court? This failure has nothing to do with the last repair!!. Second anything else should i change when replacing the cooler or look at?
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

My concern was to protect the machine from bad operators, just in case they abused the machine. I have been to several machines were the owner wanted to know if the operator ran the machine with it warning of a failure. I only tell them what I can pull from the ECMs and we would need to verify the lights and alarms are still working.

New machines will flag a fault code if the alarms are tampered with and it is logged in memory. I also get questions about times sent out on Product link and have to remind them the clocks are not always programmed to local time. They must know the machine hours and who was using the machine at that time.

Down here, there is no such thing as a trained operator, let alone any certification requirements. (Non-Union state - At Will employment)

Inspect the venturi and the ERG valve, both may need cleaning if you see coolant residue build up in them. Orifices to the sensors can be plugged if deposits are heavy. Look at the ARD air valve as well but, I doubt it got that far. Run the engine with the aftercooler outlet (to the intake) still off to blow out all the coolant in it. After the repair is complete, run a manual regen by using the operator buttons first. If your soot level is not high enough, you will need to do it with ET. Let the REGEN complete and go from there if it needs more repairs.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Can you give me instructions on how to download the information you had advised me to i would like you to review ii
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

I don't think any instructions are available. I had to learn it from talking with the TC reps and they told me what they wanted and how to get there.

Sorry, it is late here and the family will be going to bed soon. That is the main reason why I have not set up a phone service.

One thing I do is to create shortcuts to the folder with the ET files. You can find these locations in the preference tabs of ET. Many are under your Windows User account documents. I drag the link to the Quick Access tab list in Windows 10. ( I think this is available in 7 and 8 or 8.1 as well) I have links to product status reports so ever time I make one it is automatically saved for me with easy access.

If you have a friend that is PC smart, have them show you how to move and save files. Once you get an understanding of Windows file systems, you can work through any ET or CAT program.

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Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

Some instructions are available under the Help tab in ET and some training is also available at CAT dealer support if you have a CWS password.

https://dealer.cat.com/en/ps/service/software/cat-et.html

Oh, our dealer offers classes too, maybe yours has some available. Most are just a day long. The young guys seem to learn a good bit from it. My experience comes from using ET for almost 20 years.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Ok got it .. I will figure it out.. do you or can you get me the pn for the cooling sys pressure test adaptor for this 966 i can find it
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

I don't have a tester or even the vacuum filling tool. I just fill it slowly and haven't had any trouble.

As far as pressurizing, I just force some air up the overflow tube and it unseats the vacuum breaker check valve. I let the cap be the pressure setting and as long as the cap is good, the pressure will be correct on the radiator. If I must keep adding air to keep adding pressure on the system, I know the coolant is going somewhere.

The tool book is not showing the adapter I thought I had seen but, it looks like the suggested tool is an OTC cooling system tester.

https://www.otctools.com/products/cooling-system-pressure-tester

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
I have the snapon vac filler works great . I have all different adaptors but wanted the pn for the cat onei can provide them for my guys
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

I found this Special Instruction and it shows the tooling and a Chanel 1 video.

Special Instruction
Coolant Drain and Vacuum Fill Procedure For Certain C9.3 Through C18 Tier 4 Engines {0708, 1350, 1354, 1377}
Media Number -M0070968-06 Publication Date -10/07/2018

Caterpillar Channel 1
Media Number: M0070968
Title: Coolant Drain and Vacuum Fill Procedure for Certain C9.3 through C18 Tier 4 Engines
Channel 1 URL: https://channel1.mediaspace.kaltura.com/media/Coolant+Drain+and+Vacuum+Fill+Procedure+for+Certain+C9.3+Through+C18+Tier+4+Engines/1_ewt92pxn.;

Required Parts

Qty Part Number Part Name

1 (###) ###-####1) Vacuum Gauge Gp
1 (###) ###-####2) Tool Gp
1 (###) ###-#### Cap Adapter
1 (###) ###-#### Cap Adapter
1 2P-2329(3) Adapter As

(1) This tooling is the for On-Highway Trucks
(2) This tooling is for machines.
(3) This is for use with the(###) ###-####Tool Gp

I think this is the one for machine tanks.

(###) ###-####/p>

Adapter Cap (Surge Tank)

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Well here we go the cooler was deff leaking we replaced it changed the oil before i started it ther was coolent in the oil .. the unit started only one code came up 3385-13 i let unit reach op temp and began to put eng under a load it sounded like it was missing long story short so i cut out he cyls #3 has no change so what i am thinking is before i git ther they wher trying to start it and with coolent in the cyl s they blew a head gasket your thoughts ?// hhj??The unit will only move in 4th gear foward and reverase i think that by them moving it and trying to use it in 4th caused this whole mess
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

Yes, anything is possible. Head gasket, bent connecting rod, damaged valves or just a bad injector. Head gasket would blow between cylinders on old engines and two cylinders would be dead. I don't know how this engine will react, I haven't seen one fail yet.

Did it show high-temperature event codes? I don't remember seeing any.

How many times did they keep adding coolant? I think the surge tank has a level indicator that could have flagged it.

The sensor code for the EGR is strange. Did you find coolant in the EGR venturi?

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
i did not see an event for low coolent but i will double ck. as for the egr venturi i forgot to chk and to be hounest i dont even know wher it is can you tell me ?What are your thoughts on the trans no codes no logged all solanoides are working
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

It is from the back of the NRS cooler around the back of the head and to the EGR valve. That code is for the EGR pressure sensor so, I assume it is plugged with soot or coolant.

The transmission, first thought, they didn't know it was set to manual shift and left the shifter set to 4th. If it was in 4th all the time, it should have high torque converter temperatures.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
well why will it only move in 4th and 4 exsampal it will move foward and i was on a slight incline so i move it foward and let off the the gas and it will roll back and lock like the brake was appilyed
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

I am not sure. I haven't seen one lock and I know I have never let one roll back like that, maybe a small amount but, I don't operate them much either.

Is this stick steer or command wheel or standard steering wheel?

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Stick Steer i only let it roll a few inches
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

I don't know about the locking if it will run fine in 4th. That doesn't make sense. Are you sure the manual/auto button is working? Does the display show the correct gear?

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
it is working and i beleave it is disply the right gear i will double ck
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

I am just guessing here but, I would look at the status of the powertrain and parking brake when testing it to see if anything does not match what you are seeing on the display.

Is the armrest switch acting up? Could the parking brake be coming on? Just suggestions, I haven't seen this problem on any here.

Check pressures to each clutch when you shift through them, see if any are stuck on. I would check the strainer and filter too. It might have a clutch failure.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
i had a sim prob with a 980 the clutch baskets
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

The one 980K here just had a failure but, I did not get to see what happened. They just wanted me to try to quote the job on a steel mill machine, sight unseen!

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
is ther any tooling to pressure test that nox cooler I want to confirm I'm sure I can figure something out if not? Next what psi is the cooling sys I could not find in sys?
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

Oh, that looks expensive! Good find!

Specifications

966K Wheel Loader and 972K

Wheel Loader Machine Systems

Media Number -KENR6484-00 Publication Date -01/03/2011 Date Updated -23/03/2011

Coolant Tank Cap

Part Number -(###) ###-####

Main valve opening pressure ... 90 to 117 kPa (13 to 17 psi)

Note: Measure the pressure when the air flow is at a rate of 30 cc (1.8 cubic inch) per minute.

Pressure range to open vacuum breaker ... 10 kPa (1.5 psi)

Testing and Adjusting

C9.3 Engines for Caterpillar Built Machines

Media Number -KENR9368-23 Publication Date -01/09/2015 Date Updated -26/02/2016

Exhaust Cooler (NRS) - Test

Tools Needed for the Exhaust Cooler Pressure Test

Part Number Part name Quantity

(###) ###-####Plug(1) Expandable rubber plug 1 (###) ###-####Plug(2) Expandable rubber plug 1 (###) ###-####Plug(3) Vented turn-tite plug 1

1 9S-8140 Pressurizing Pump 1

2 1U-5470 Engine Pressure Gp 1

(1) Used for C9.3 engines

(2) Used for C13 - C18 engines

(3) Used on both C13 - C18 engines and C9.3 engines.

Note: 1 Use for the On engine test

Note: 2 Use for the Off engine test

On Engine Test Procedure

An external leak of the exhaust cooler can often be found by making a visual inspection. To check for internal leaks in the air side, use the following procedure.

------ WARNING! ------

Personal injury can result from hot coolant, steam and alkali.

At operating temperature, engine coolant is hot and under pressure. The radiator and all lines to heaters or the engine contain hot coolant or steam. Any contact can cause severe burns.

Remove filler cap slowly to relieve pressure only when engine is stopped and radiator cap is cool enough to touch with your bare hand.

Cooling System Conditioner contains alkali. Avoid contact with skin and eyes.

Remove the components attached to ports (3), (4) on the air side of the cooler. Typical components are bellows, air lines, or hoses.

Pressurize coolant system with the 9S-8140 Pressurizing Pump. Refer to Testing and Adjusting Section, "Testing the Radiator and Cooling System for Leaks".

While the cooling system is pressurized, observe the cooler for leaks. If no coolant leaks from the air side of the cooler after 15 minutes, the NRS-cooler is reusable.

If the NRS-Cooler does not leak, the problem may be elsewhere in the cooling system or the engine. Refer to the appropriate service manual in order to check for leakage.

Off Engine Air Under Water Leak Test Procedure.

Use the 1U-5470 Engine Pressure Gp to perform this test. Refer to Special Instruction, SEHS8907, "Using The 1U-5470 Engine Pressure Group".

Expandable rubber plug

Vented turn-tite plug

Plug the air inlet (3) with the expandable rubber plug and air outlet (4) with the vented turn-tite plug on the NRS-Cooler (1).

Make sure that the air pressure regulator is closed and connect compressed air to the pressure regulator.

NOTICE

Do not over-pressurize the cooler, stay within the recommended pressures.

Apply a minimum of 34.5 kPa (5 psi), but not more than 68.9 kPa (10 psi) of air pressure to the cooler.

While the NRS-cooler is still pressurized, submerge the cooler in water that is at ambient temperature.

Allow the NRS-Cooler to settle in order for the air that is trapped to escape

Observe the NRS-cooler for air bubbles that indicate a leak.

If no bubbles are observed, follow step 3.

Remove the NRS-Cooler from the water.

While the NRS-Cooler is still pressurized, use a soap solution in order to aid in finding the slow leaks.

Spray the NRS-Cooler with the soap solution on the inner and outer surfaces.

Observe the NRS-Cooler for the formation of bubbles, which indicate a leak.

Note the location or the origin of the leak. Record this information.

If no bubbles are detected after 30 sec, the NRS-cooler is reusable.

If the NRS-Cooler does not leak, the problem may be elsewhere in the cooling system or the engine. Refer the appropriate service manual in order to check for leakage.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Here's what my failure analysis is they ran and moved the unit the cooler has 9500 hrs mind you so its tired so I'm sure they wher try to move it In 4th gear and lord knows they did not lm let it warm just fire off and start moving the cooler failed filled the cylinders and when they attempted to re start several times and tried to Compress the coolant it fractured the liner and bent the rod . And if the cooling system wasn't properly maintained and the pitting scaling in the liner bores. Your thoughts?
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

Yep! I am sure they had to run it hot and blow out antifreeze. Look at the Product status report and see the engine temperature chart, it will have a high reading and show how many hours it ran at that temp. It does not show when but it will prove how hot it got. You should have logged overheating event codes and high torque converter temperature events.

If you do not have logged events, then the NRS cooler just failed and filled the engine. They just kept on trying to crank it and probably never looked at the coolant level.

I doubt anyone monitored any of the levels either.

That is why I suggested downloading everything you can get to have a record when things start showing up after the repairs are done or when you find more than expected.

If you looked at the product status report on a newer version of ET, it automatically saves a copy. Just go to the preferences tab in ET and locate the folder it is saved in.

You can also view the reports by going to the file tab and then reports and select product status report. I click on the date tab in the results window to sort the files by the date from the most recent so I can find the most recent report first.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
I will and I will look keep you posted
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

Ok, thanks.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Hello sir in your honest opinion is it possible that this failure was or can be the results of the previous repairs made NOTE I DID NOT DRAIN THE COOLANT SYSTEM
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

I cannot remember the previous repair, please refresh my memory.

These NRS coolers have a history of failures, I suspect that first. Did you find coolant in the EGR (NRS) venturi? The more residue in the venturi, the longer the leak was present and the operator should have noticed a loss of coolant. This has been the story I heard before, suddenly needing to add coolant but not seeing a leak. They left is unreported and they the next call was engine is locked. The bent rod is a clear indication it was hydro-locked.

Second, these engines have issues with the lifters, Did it have valve damage? The cylinder wall looked normal other than the crack.

As to the root cause, I would suspect abuse. Did you have any signs or overheating? Low coolant level before the failure?

If you did not drain the coolant, then you would not have any responsibility for the refill or chance of air pockets causing the failure.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
I just reconfirmed the cooler is leaking. I really don't think I'm going to have an issue with my customer with regards ***** ***** previous repair which was 6 new injectors new pump all new high pressure fuel lines and a valve adjustment note I pressured tested system when injectors where out to check for Cup leaks none ..
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 4 years ago

Yea, I don't see any way the fuel system repair could be related to this issue. You would have known right away if excessive fuel was in the cylinder when you started the engine and it would never have made it out of the shop. If you allowed to much fuel to collect in the cylinder and did not pump the cylinder out before turning the engine, then it would be possible to bent the rad and crack the liner. BUT, it would have filled with coolant right away. If I am out in the open, I insert a siphon spray hose in the injector and just spray out the fluid.

catmastertech
catmastertech, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 3,996
Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.
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