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1987 D4H LGL Series II Machine Serial: 9DB01xxx Engine:

Customer Question
1987 D4H LGL Series II Machine...
1987 D4H LGL Series II
Machine Serial: 9DB01xxx
Engine: 45V68312
Transmission: 1CE02817
Power shift transmissionTransmission is fine and works well when cold. When transmission fluid warms up to about 210F, it fails to go into gear.
Thinking it might be the transmission charge pump. Could it be anything else (fluid full and changed the filter)
Is there a way to test and where the heck is the pump located in the transmission? Doi you have to pull the tranny all the way out or is it accessible through the peep holes?
Submitted: 4 years ago.Category: Construction and Road Equipment
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Answered in 2 hours by:
8/29/2017
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago
Dan
Dan, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 14,646
Experience: 17+ yrs. shop and field experience with all major brands of heavy equipment and trucks - 1995 WyoTech graduate.
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Hi my name is***** will be glad to help. This could be charge pump and converter or both. check in the old filter for signs of metal debris and also verify your pressures are in specs as well. Let me know what you find in the filter,

Also the drive shaft between the converter and transmission should be spinning at engine speed. Let me know

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
old filter for signs of metal debris: replaced the filter a while ago (first thing I did) and it looked fine. No metal or anything. Don't think it had to be replaced but did anyeay.
Verify your pressures are in specs as well: How and where do I check?
The drive shaft between the converter and transmission should be spinning at engine speed - nothing visible under the dozer. Since everything works fine when oil is cold, would suspect everythoing spinniong as should at least when cold.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

You remove the floor panel at your feet to check the shaft turning. No metal is a good sign. There should be some pressure ports on the transmission control valve and possibly the filter housing to install a 500 PSI gauge to check the pressures. Let me know what you are seeing for pressure.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Give me a couple days to find a 500 psi guage and then I guess I have to run and work the machine without the floorboard to monitor the pressure. In case I can find nothing on the filter housing to attach a guage to (although I seem to remember a possibel port on top), where is the transmission control valve?
Customer reply replied 4 years ago
FYI - nobody I know has a pressure guage that will work and no store around has one either. Have to order a guage online and will not even have guage until Sept 5-6. Will contact you when I have the guage and the pressure measurements at start up and once starts to fail at 210F. Will be at least a week.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

Thanks for the update. Yes we can follow up as needed

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Finally got a guage and found a bunch of adaptors to convert the 9/16-18 hole to a 1/4 npt to attach the guage.
Anyway, here is what I can tell you.
Although I have used the machine for short periods daily (until temperature warmed up), it is now stuck in the woods and will not really move.
Pressure at pump at full idle: about 100psi
Shaft turning
Engage transmission: psi drops to about 0. Shaft stops turning.
In low gear and high rpm, engage transmission and shaft will turn slightly and tracks will slowly move forward. Engine under strain (black smoke) and pump psi is maybe 10 psi.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

Thanks for the update. That is an indication of a charge pump and possible converter failure if metal is found in the filter and screen, If clean you may be okay with a new charge pump unless you have excessive internal leakage elsewhere. If no metal is found, it would be worth replacing the charge pump for starters and then recheck your pressures. Let me know.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
I spent the money for a service manual.
It says to drop the bottom pan and drain the transmssion fluid. Can I get away without doing that? I know I will loosea bunch of fluid from the pump, but out in the woods, not dropping the bottom plate would be a big help. Your thoughts?
I didnt see any metal or anything in the filter. The only think of note was that a couple of the bands were broken on the filter, that was it
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

The belly pan would be a pain to do in the woods. I recommend if no metal/debris is found or discolored /burnt /milky oil is noted then it would be worth replacing the pump. I would go for aftermarket to save money,

It is a gear pump so removal and disassembly for inspection will tell you if the pump has failed after failure analisys.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
The question was do you think it would okay not to drop the belly pan and not drain the fluid before replacing chrage pump? Like I said, oil looks clean so I shouldn't need to change the oil and there was no debri in the filter. Besides, replacing 31 gallons @ ~$100 per 5 gallons adds up.Lastly, is CTP brand okay or should I spend the extra for the italian made CGR?
Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Ignore that. Found a CGR pump for the price of a CTP so altready ordered.
Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Not sure you will get thius in time as I need to make a deciusion soon. Company misquoted so back to square 1.
Here are my choices: CTP (turkey- 6mo warranty): $875, CGR (Italy-1 yr warranty): $1100, or Rebuilt Cat (30-day warranty): $875.
The rebuilt is not really rebuilt. Removed by Komatsu dealer and replaced seals.
Any recommendations?
All CGR pumps are in Florida and may be a problem geting it before Irma
Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Or do I first pull the pump and inspect it before replacing.
Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Thinking you missed my earlier messages.
What do you think about the CTP vs CGR pumps?
Going to try and pull the pump over the weekend and order nre pump on Monday.
Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Also, Service manual refers to "Fasten a hoist and tooloing (A) to oil pump (3)..." at step 6.
Any idea what they are referring to as "tooling"?
See attached
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

thanks for the update CTP is perfectly fine and I order from them myself. They have warranty on their parts. If you are 100% sure there is no debris, water, etc in the oil that could damage the new pump then you can change the filter but it is always recommended to service the oil when you get it in a better place to work on it.

That is just a lifting eye to thread into the pump to hook your chain or lift strap to to hoist and support the pump weighing 70lbs.

Please take a moment to rate as that is how the site credits my time helping on the site or let me know if you need more help. 5 star and bonuses are always greatly appreciated.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Pump out, how do I "inspection will tell you if the pump has failed after failure analisys"
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

Disassemble the pump, look for scoring/wear on the housing and gears.... sometimes there is excessive clearance from wear causing a loss of pump output.

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Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

Click on this link

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
I found pieces of metal inside the pump (see attached). It is some sort of non-metallic alloy. It is not steel.
Any thoughts? What would be an alloy in this machine. Did not find or see any on the transmission filter.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

Aluminum in the torque converter possibly

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Okay, try not to laugh.
I went back out to the dozer, examined and filtered the oil that was removed. No signs of metal. Pulled out the filter and it was also clean. So where didthis alloy come from. I took the largest piece, from the picture I sent you, and examined it under magnification. The reason it was non-metalic is beause it is small pieces of concrete!!
I had powerwashed the pump to remove all the oil and dirt before taking it apart in the area I usually mix concrete. Looks like I powerwashed some concrete into the pump. LOL. I was really worried there for awhile.All the pumps that I could find (put it out to bid) at a reasonable price was out of Florida and Irma has kind of prevented me from ordering a new pump. Won't be until Irma is over and done before I can get a pump. Will let you know when it is received and installed. Will head out Tuesday to CAT toget new filter and some oil (150 miles away).
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

Haha no worries... At least it is good news and not an indication of other more serious problems. Do the housing and gears show scoring and excessive wear? There are close machined tolerances and in some cases the wear will look like it was machined that way. Keep me posted.

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Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

Blue would be from excessive heat due to lack of oil and cooling.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Is that indicative of pump failure?
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

Yes that is correct.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Well that was a waste of time and $1,000,00. The new pump puts out less pressure than the old one.
Old pump: 100 psi at idle, 0 psi engaged
New Pump: 50 psi at idle, 0 psi engaged
A machinist friend of mine says unequivically that the blue marks are machining dye.Lets review situation - may be a related or separate issues.
Original issue: Transmission would not go into gear after trasnmission warms up, greater than 180-190F. Otherwise worked normally.
Current issue: Transmission engages (transmission cold) but does not move. Increasing idle causse engine to load (black smoke).
Drive Shaft: Spins freely in neutral, stops spinning in gear (F or R)
Pressure: Transmission charge pump: 75psi at in neutral, 0 psi tranny engaged (new pump)
Rear ports:
Lower port (rt side): 0 psi at idle, 300 psi gear engaged
High port (lt side): 250 psi at idle, 350 psi gear engaged
Any new thoughts?
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

If the converter is putting power to the transmission and it will load the engine to the point of black smoke it points to an internal failure in the transmission or the clutches/final drives. Start draining reservoirs looking for signs of metal/ failure.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Gotta be a better way than just blindly draining fluids.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

How long has this thing been dead out in the woods?

You can check pressures but as far as the bevel gear and final drives, draining them will tell you if there are metal chunks indicating a failure. But it is unlikely both sides would fail at once so the common link it the transmission and bevel gear... draining the transmission will tell you if there is an internal failure. Also testing your transmission pressures so if you have clutch pressure in forward and reverse but the machine wont move it points to a mechanical failure preventing movement... If the valve body is okay and you can shift forward and Reverse. No sticking valves or spools.....You could always pull the axles/planetaries and tow it out of the woods with another machine if easier to work on...

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Maybe a week. If you read the thread, I was using it for short periods of time, shutting down before tranny temp warmed up and tranny started slipping. Went out next day to move it to the garage to work on it and it would not move.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

This sounds more like it is a mechanical failure in the powershift transmission.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
62;You can check pressures. Read above. already checked pressures.
>draining the transmission... Already drained most of it replacing filters and charge pump with no metal or any debris.
>Also testing your transmission pressures = read above
>If the valve body is okay and you can shift forward and Reverse.. Read above
>tow it out of the woods with another machine = after $1000's of dollars later
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

You need to drain the transmission to pull the suction screen. That is where the most metal and trash will collect on a failure. Also, the D4H was known for loosing drive when the oil is hot due to worn out pressure control spools and valve body section. Last I heard they are near $4000 for new and all the old ones out there will likely be as worn out as the current valve section. A common problem.

You could have a brake problem? If brake pressure is not made, the priority valve could prevent the transmission get oil pressure.

You really should have the service book handy while running through all the brake, steering, and transmission pressure checks to get the full picture for accurate troubleshooting.

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
Not lots of help. Just guesses. Only have dissasembly-assembly manual. Don't know where to find any other manuals.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 4 years ago

I was field service for Cat. Troubleshooting requires testing of all system pressures, inspection of the filters, oil, suction screen, operational checks, etc. All you can do is guess when you have completed only a part of the checks required as it seems to be an inconvenience to drain the transmission in the woods or pull the axles to tow it to a better location. I am going to opt out and maybe someone else can better assist

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Customer reply replied 4 years ago
You should have known from the original charge pump pressures that the pump was not likey the issue. If I have $1000's to waste I would have a 2017 model.
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Dan, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
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Experience: 17+ yrs. shop and field experience with all major brands of heavy equipment and trucks - 1995 WyoTech graduate.

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