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Ralphlive, I have an 821b loader that is giving me all kinds…

HI Ralphlive, I have an...
HI Ralphlive, I have an 821b loader that is giving me all kinds of grief. It came in to the shop with transmission issues, kicking out in 1st and 2nd gear, possibly 4th as well. As I understand it this trans has a limp mode that is accessible by shifting thru neutral and back to third gear and I believe that is how the owner was operating it thinking it was just 1st and 2nd that were out. I have gone through the solenoids, their connections to the trans controller and replaced the trans controller as well as put a seal kit in the valve body with no result other than now it will only go into third and then only sometimes and not necessarily with the shifter in forward or reverse.
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Answered in 3 hours by:
12/3/2015
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 6 years ago
Dan
Dan, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 14,619
Experience: 17+ yrs. shop and field experience with all major brands of heavy equipment and trucks - 1995 WyoTech graduate.
Verified

Hi Jonathan, My name is***** will be glad to try to help. Have you checked the transmission filter and strainer for signs of metal/debris that would indicate an internal problem? Any discoloration or burnt smell in the oil? If not I would do so to either confirm or rule that out. Also check the transmission neutralizer circuit as I believe there should be a switch to enable or disable this function. This enables the operator to disengage the transmission when loading trucks or working in tight areas. Check the harness in that circuit as well. The will usually be a button on the joystick control and those that do not have it will have a switch tied into the left brake circuit. Let me know the info from your transmission tag and also.

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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the response. It has been a week or two since I last worked on this so my memory is a bit rusty. I have checked and changed trans. filter and fluid. Filter was ok, fluid was old but not terrible. Declutch switch was faulty, would not declutch, but has since been replaced, apply pressure checks out good and clutches lock up for each gear when I jump the solenoids. harness has been checked repeatedly and ohm'ed from plug to plug at each connection point, turbine and ground speed sensors have been checked and are ok, shift selector was faulty and replaced as well. I think that about covers it.The trans. temp senders have been checked and are ok as well.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 6 years ago

Thanks for the update. Could you get me the machine serial number and also the info from the transmission tag when you get back to it?

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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
s/n JEE0057170
Valve body casting number: 4644-406-560
Transmission data plate is missing
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 6 years ago

The 4 forward/3 reverse speed

full powershift transmission is

equipped with hydraulically

actuated multi-disc clutches. An

electric twist-grip range selector

lever is located on the steering

column. Both allow quick response

to changing conditions in either

direction of travel.

Range-sensing forward/reverse

shift modulation in 1st and 2nd gear

produces smooth directional

changes and faster cycle times to

improve productivity.

A transmission disconnect

feature activates when the left brake

is engaged to allow for faster

hydraulic response.

Both the 821B and 921B feature

autoshift transmissions

activated

by a switch on the steering console.

Autoshift will work in either 3rd or

4th gear. When 3rd gear is selected,

the unit automatically shifts

between 2nd and 3rd. When 4th

gear is selected, the unit

automatically shifts between 2nd,

3rd and 4th gears. Modulation is

electronically controlled to increase

operator comfort and driveline

component life.

The

downshift button

allows the

operator to shift instantly from 2nd to

1st gear for greater push power into

the pile — then automatically

upshifts into 2nd gear when backing

out of the pile.

A single-stage integral torque

converter with 3-to-1 stall ratio

reduces shockloads to the powertrain

by automatically adjusting torque to

job requirements.

Outboard-mounted planetary

drive axles are standard.

Limited slip differentials on the

821B and torque-proportioning axles

on the 921B automatically provide

ground-gripping traction in adverse

conditions.

Self-adjusting, fade-resistant

outboard mounted, multiple wet disc

brakes are located at the ends of each

axle. Five friction brake discs

between metal discs have a total of

415 in

2

(2678 cm

2

) of stopping power

for each wheel on the 821B and

903 in

2

(5826 cm

2

) on the 921B.

Separate hydraulic brake circuits

for front and rear actuation provide

independent system security. The left

pedal electrically neutralizes power

flow to the wheels before the brakes

are applied. This system can be

controlled by an on/off switch on

the instrument panel so that the left

pedal transmission disconnect is

deactivated to brake against

power. The right pedal applies

brakes only.

Engaging the parking brake

applies a disc brake on the

transmission output shaft and

disconnects the transmission to

prevent drive-through.

Check the downshift button and harness to see if there is a faulty switch or a harness issue. If the transmission disconnect circuit is good and mechanically everything checks out I would have to say the problem has to be in the controller or harness for the autoshift feature.

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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
We have checked the harness, solenoids, and switches. At this point all external input to the trans shows good but we still get stuck in limp mode (3rd gear), sometimes immediately sometimes after the trans reaches operating temp, ~160*, or the last time we tried it after rebuilding the valve body it was randomly selecting a gear even in neutral.turbine speed sensor, good
ground (output) speed sensor, replaced and calibrated
hyd. oil temp sender, good
trans temp sender (m6 temp transducer) replaced
m1-m6 solenoids, good
de-clutch switch, replaced
gear select lever, replaced
trans. controller, replaced
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 6 years ago

Thanks for the update. What are you getting for pressures when monitoring pressures through the speed ranges and in each forward and reverse gears?

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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
Seems like it was running around 350 psi, I will try to get it back up to the shop today and re run the pressure checks. If I remember correctly the turbine outlet pressure was down around 80 psi which seems low but so far I only have partial info on pressures.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 6 years ago

Here are some specs and troubleshooting info that should help.

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Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 6 years ago

I uploaded some more info. You should have the 4WG200 ZF transmission in this loader. Click on this link.

Troubleshooting and Repair

Dan
Dan, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 14,619
Experience: 17+ yrs. shop and field experience with all major brands of heavy equipment and trucks - 1995 WyoTech graduate.
Verified
Dan and 87 other Construction and Road Equipment Specialists are ready to help you
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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
Ok pressure at port 65 according to the ZF WG 180 trans manual is reading 250psi. This trans has the aluminum die cast valve body, casting# ***** in 558. I also noted that I can shift from 1st to 2nd and back in forward, 2nd to 3rd and back in neutral and I get a very strange modulation when I select reverse and try to shift into 4th, pressure is 250 then drops to about 100, rises to ~180, drops back to 100 and then climbs back to 250 with no engagement. I have no reverse in any gear or range.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 6 years ago

Was there any signs of black friction material in the suction screen of the transmission? If you have not pulled the screen Id drain the oil in a clean bucket and pull the screen to see if there is any sign of clutch failure. Let me know

Here is what I recommend... Get all your pressures written down in each speed range forward and reverse and with the modulation of pressure you are getting. Just to be sure I understand correctly this modulation happens only in reverse or in 2 to 3 forward as well? Click on this link and reach out to these guys. They are pretty good about getting someone on the phone with you from service as they are into these transmissions every day and have seen it all. They have steered me in the right direction in the past when I had a problem I was pulling my hair out on too. http://www.centranz.com/

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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
Ok thanks for the link, I will get in touch with them. The modulation only occurs on the 3-4 shift with reverse selected on the lever. No signs of excessive clutch wear in the fluid or screen and before I took the valve body off we had good engagement in 1-4 and forward/ reverse clutch packs. Apply pressure was consistent to within 2-3 psi for all gears. I pulled the valve body off this morning to check spring lengths and the gaskets I installed between the plates.
Customer reply replied 6 years ago
You wouldnt happen to know which line from the valve body goes to which clutch pack would you?
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 6 years ago

Hi Jonathan, See PDF pages 16 and 180 and also in the dis assembly section it will reference the inputs for which clutches it is for. Ill check and see if I can find a diagram to make it easier to ID.

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Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 6 years ago

Ok On the valve from top to bottom it goes K2 K1 K3 K4 KR KV . Then on the transmission Top left ports top to bottom are KR K2. Top right ports KV K1. Bottom center ports K3 K4.

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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
Ok I think I found it but I'm going to put gauges on it this morning to see for sure. I spoke to Mike at centranz and he suggested leaving the solenoids unplugged and starting the machine to see which clutches grab. Apparently 3rd should be applied by default as a sort of compensator/accumulator, I only have one line that has pressure but I need to confirm that it is 3rd. Mike is thinking the no.4 clutch pack has failed engaged and so I am always getting a gear regardless of shifter position. Not sure I buy that since only having one clutch engaged should not move the machine but I am willing to try anything at this point!
Customer reply replied 6 years ago
Ok so the gauges are reading 248 psi on k3 and 245 psi on kv with no electrical attached to the valve body. All the spools and bores in the valve body look good, any ideas?
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Category: Construction and Road Equipment
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