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I have a E120b catapillar excavator and motor was almost…

I have a E120b catapillar...
I have a E120b catapillar excavator and motor was almost stalling when lifting boom I have replaced 4 relief valves had hydronic pump reconditioned 130 hours ago ,have recently replaced hydronic oil and filters ,and yesterday had motor reconditioned and it still has very slow hydronic when you bring boom and stick down and towards you. Yes I have replaced injectors with reconditioned and have had injector pump out and looked at by a professional I'm wondering if it could be the computer . Caterpillar said computer was not available any more ,so wondering what to do if anyone has any suggestions it would be much appreciated
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Answered in 12 hours by:
8/28/2015
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago
catmastertech
catmastertech, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 3,998
Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.
Verified

Hello, I am sorry no one could help you earlier. I will be glad to help if you still need it.

You can operate this machine in backup mode. Place the switch located on the controller box in the backup position and it will send voltage through a resistor to the PRV solenoid and the pump will operate at 80% power (like power level II).

If changing the position of the switch does not help, check your fuse for the backup switch and then see if the PRV solenoid is getting power.

If you need more help with this problem, please include the full machine serial number with your reply.

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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Tried computer on manual and checked fuses just to clarify stick only goes slow on the way down up is fine and the boom is fine up and down not as last message I have replaced the PRV solenoid (that if it is the one that is vertical ) on the end of the solenoid bank. Do I pay for each message or when I'm satisfied with the answer ?
Regards wayne
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Thanks for the information.

Please clarify, are all functions losing power or just the stick extend or retract?

I assumed you meant the machine does not have lifting power since you were working with reliefs, engine injectors and asking about the controller.

Are you still concerned about the controller? Do the lights on the controller work? Did you check for power on the PRV solenoid?

Please post the full machine serial number so I can find the correct information for this machine.

Questions are conversations about a particular problem. You can ask as many as you like about this same issue. Once this problem is solved to your satisfaction, then you can provide a rating and the question will close. I will not be paid until I have answered your question to your satisfaction. If I cannot help you, I can OPT-OUT or you can request a different expert.

catmastertech
catmastertech, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 3,998
Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.
Verified
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
I haven't checked for power in PRV solenoid ( check my email I sent with picture to clarify ) but if it is what I think the cat mechanic did. I haven't seen any lights o the computer (controller ) stick function is very slow on retract ( when you bring stick towards machine ) injectors have been repaced last week when motor was rebuilt and injector pump was looked at before that. Original problem cam in slowly over a few hours until it would almost stall motor if you weren't using 2 functions eg stick and boom all other functions didn't affect motor. Hope this helps regards wayne
Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Waiting on response from previous email that had pictures attached if you received it
Regards wayne
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Sorry, this service does not work through email. You most post all responses on the web page. All contact is through the web page per site policy. That is why no personal information is allowed to protect your privacy as it can be seen by everyone.

Please upload the pictures using the site tools, then I can see them.

Did you check the PRV solenoid for power?

Please post the full machine serial number so I can find the correct information for this machine.

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Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Yes, that is the PRV solenoid. Check for voltage at its connector. You should have a green wire wire a white strip and a green wire with a yellow strip connected to it. This is powered from the bypass switch.

If the resister is good, voltage will be around 20 volts. If controller is working, voltage can vary from 10 volts to 20 volts.

Resister is in the bottom of the controller box.

Here is a diagram to help.

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Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Since the throttle control is working, the ECM controller is working too. With the switch down, that is in automatic position. When the switch up, that is backup mode, through the resistor. The resister is sending some current to the PRV, I am not clear as to the correct amount but it has a circuit. Do not replace it yet.

Since the controller is working, lets look at the indicator lights to see if the controller is function correctly.

Remove the cover and it should have a label on it that shows how the lights will be for different functions.

Start the machine and place the safety lever on as to work then record the lights that are on and/or off. Some may flash too.

This is a normal set of lights. (see attachment)

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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Thanks I will get on to what u said but the answer before yours I took that if the voltage was between 10 and 20 it was working beig very close to the lower limit is that a concern
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Yes, the diagram indicates it should be 10 to 20 volts. You may need to read the voltage in the AC setting since this is a PWM circuit. (Pulse Width Modulated).

The wires in the circuit could be weak. Test this by disconnecting the controller and measure the resistance across pin terminals 9 and 19 shown in the diagram. You should see 27 to 40 ohms resistance.

I wasn't too worried about it yet, the lights may tell us more about the controllers operation. If the indicators are on as the normal image is showing then this issue will be in the hydraulic systems, not the electronic system.

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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
hi there, I have tested terminal pins 9 and 19 0n the wiring loom it tested 32.5 ohms pins 9 and 19 0n the controller tested 4.76 0hms i wasnt shore which on i had to test so i have given you both. controller lights that were on as instructed were L1 red L4green L6 green L8 green L9 green. resistor in the bottom of controller box tested at 54.6 ohms. I re tested wires to Prv solinoid and it now tested 5.28 dc volts i tested it on ac volts and it was 1.5. hope this helps sorry for delayed response i have been unwell
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Sorry to hear you have been ill. I hope you are feeling better now.

It does appear the controller is seeing an issue with the PRV but, it is still trying to send voltage to the PRV (L6 LED is on).

Have you checked the battery voltage to the controller? Test across pins 11 and 21 in the harness connector to see what the voltage to the controller shows. Battery voltage should be 24.5 volts to 25.5 volts. If it is correct, check voltage to the backup switch from pins 9 and 19. (10 to 20 volts) Then see what the voltage is from the backup switch with the PRV disconnected. (Green w/ yellow strip and Green w/ white strip)

Also check voltage to the resistor and from the resistor.

Please post the full machine serial number with your reply.

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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Pins 11 and 21 tested 25.30 volts
Pins 9 and 19 tested 19.7volts
Prv disconnected tested 25.38 at the back of controller switch
Voltage to resistor was 25.38 and 25.37 out
Hope I have understood your questions and have given sufficient answers if not please explain a little more
Regards wayne
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Great job testing.

Since you have full voltage to the controller and the correct voltage leaving the controller and backup switch, the issue seems to be the voltage at the PRV solenoid. You have good power at the switch going to the PRV but, loose the voltage at the PRV.

I would replace the wires from the backup switch to the PRV solenoid.

Once this repair is done, check the lights on the controller and see if they return to the normal display image I sent you earlier.

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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Will run wires as suggested where does the green wire with white strip run from Prv soliniod to where? The green wire with yellow strip runs from Prv soliniods to the back up switch am I on track ?
Also what does the red light on L1 controller panel mean ?
Thanks for your thorough support
Regards wayne
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Both wires run from the backup switch to the prv. One is the + power and the other is the - ground. I think it is terminal 2 and 5 of the switch (not sure though).

The first three LEDs are the trouble code lights. The L1 is just a code meaning a problem has been detected with the prv circuit. It can be on with other lights and mean different things.

Controller LED's

L1 through L4:

As long as the CPU is operating properly, L4 is ON and L1 through L3 are OFF. If the self-diagnostic functions detect any error or if the accelerator lever is moved a large amount of travel during operation, error codes will be displayed on L1 through L4. Nine types of error codes are displayed by combined use of blinking LEDs, L1 through L4.

When the test program starts, the input data will be displayed on various switches.

L5:

Watch dog timer display. This LED will go on if the CPU malfunctions.

L6:

L6 is ON when pulse width modulation command signal (PWM) is output to the proportional reducing valve. When there is an open circuit in the output circuit to the proportional reducing valve, L6 lights for 0.5 second in a cycle of 2 seconds.

When there is a short circuit in the output circuit, the LED goes out.

L7:

1. As long as a problem of code No.4 or 5 of Self-Diagnostic Function persists, L7 is ON. When L7 is OFF, it indicates that the problem has been corrected.

2. This LED will go on when switches 1 and 2 are pressed at the same time to read the high idle speed. This indicates that the speed has been input to the controller.

L8:

Indicates the state of the automatic engine control (AEC) relay. In normal condition, the LED is ON when the AEC relay is placed in the ON state. It is OFF when the AEC relay is placed in the OFF state. When there is an open circuit in the output circuit to the AEC relay, the LED lights for 0.5 second in a cycle of 5 seconds. When there is a short circuit in the output circuit, the LED goes out.

L9:

Indicates the input from the engine speed sensor. Flashes during engine rotation.

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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
I haven't run wires but did test at PRV connection point with PRV disconnected and had 24.5 volts tested across green /yellow white strip . I put a new connectors between PRV solinoid and the green wires to eliminate plug error I tested PRV power wire after connectors and was 10.25 volts in back up mode and 5 .3 in auto I have installed a new PRV how can I tell if this is functioning properly as everything seems ok up to here I know I haven't run wires yet. I can fend the green with yellow strip on back up switch but the only other wire I can find as well is only green
Cheers ***** ***** for quick response you guys r awsume
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

That is one of the problems with these machines. Even if I had the correct serial number, sometimes the actual machine could be different. Early models often were different and when a "Gray Market" machine is in the mix (built for Japan or other areas), it becomes potluck.

Use the diagram I sent you earlier. Test switch Terminals and check for continuity back to the solenoid connections. You have enough of a connection to read some voltage but, it is not holding the load of the solenoid. It should be enough for you to determine the correct wire using the ohm meter.

Connect a wire at the solenoid end and then check for continuity at the switch terminals by disconnecting the wire and connect it to the meter. This is to create a loop with one connection at the switch wire and the other at the solenoid wire. A good reading will have less than 5 ohms resistance, this will mean you are on the correct wire.

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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Hi catmaster I have run new wires from controller switch to PRV solenoid and stick function is still very slow on retract (that's retract on the hydronic cylinder ) eg bringing the stick towards machine I will try the other 4 soliniods for power supply unless you have any other suggestions
Regards wayne
Ps we must be getting close
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

I am assuming the LED lights are now in the "normal" pattern. You should not need to test the other solenoids and they do not control the pump.

How does the rest of the machine perform? Use the attach guide to see how to check cylinder cycle times. Compare to the cycle time chart and post your results. This will help me understand how the machine is operating.

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Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Cycle times at full throttle

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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Hi catmaster
Controller lights still has L1 on red L4 green L6 green and L9 green . I had a play around with testing other solinoids and traced and got power to three of them out of the 4 machine is now functioning well with the exception of whe you slew and boom up it slows the engine down without any load ,this is on the Middle digging function the function either side operates as before with stick towards machine very slow
Regards wayne
Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Hi catmaster ,
Do you have a wiring diagram that takes in the 4 soliniods so I can trace that wire of the soliniod that isn't getting power .
Regards wayne
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

Here are details about the pilot oil manifold.

(17) Pilot filter. (18) Solenoid valve I. (19) Solenoid valve II. (20) Solenoid valve III (If equipped). (21) Solenoid valve IV. (22) Pressure reducing valve. (23) Pilot oil manifold. (25) Pilot relief valve. (26) Accumulator. (35) Line (power shift pressure).

Pilot oil from pilot filter (17) then flows to pilot oil manifold (23) which serves as a common pilot oil supply. Mounted on manifold (23) are four solenoid valves I (18), II (19), III (20) (if equipped) and IV (21). Also mounted on the manifold are pressure reducing valve (22), pilot relief valve (25) and accumulator (26).

Solenoid Operated Valves

Below are four solenoid valves mounted on pilot oil manifold (23).

When each solenoid part receives an electrical signal, it energizes and operates the valve part.

For description of operation of each valve, see the section given separately.

Solenoid valve I (18); provides easier inching operation for leveling.

Solenoid valve II (19); provides easier ditch excavation operation.

Solenoid valve III (20) (If equipped); releases the swing parking brake.

Solenoid valve IV (21); changes the travel speed from LOW to HIGH.

I will also attach a wiring diagram. These are not great images but, they may help.

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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Hi catmaster, I have done pressure tests as follows boom extension 4.3 seconds retraction 3.6
Stick ext 5.2 ret 3.9 bucket ext4.6 ret 3.0. L1 controller light still has a red light do theses lights reset themselves or is there a reset procedure . If digging function is set on either side of Middle function stick extension takes 30.5 seconds .the picture is the function the main tests were done on hope this email helps you narrow this challenge down .
Regards wayne
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 7 years ago

I have never seen one that would slow down that much by changing switch positions.

Actually, cycle times should never change as you are only operating one function at the time. Your cycle times are not too far off so, pump output is good.

The middle function is used for trench working to provide more stick priority and allow swing to be faster than boom functions. The result will allow the machine to turn 180 degrees by the time the boom is fully raised.

The left function is for boom priority and this will send the boom up the quickest. The result will be the boom is fully raised in about a fourth of a turn when swinging.

The right function is fine controls and does not increase speed on any component. This will reduce the effect of the control levers to move quickly. It has little impact on the machine except for placing objects with the bucket. The knob to the right is your power selection and is low to high from left to right. Level three is full power for the pump. This can effect speeds and the fine control of the machine.

Since your controls are way off when not in the middle mode, the pilot control lines must be wrong to some of the control valves. Someone must have worked on the main control valve and have connect the lines to a wrong function.

About the only way to fix this is to trace out each line and identify the connections using the parts book. The service manual does not provide that level of detail.

Even with a good picture, this will be very difficult and time consuming. I am not sure I can get enough information from the pictures to help. I have done some of this when I repair machines that had fire damage but, I still had some of the hoses and marking tags to help.

Do you have a parts book?

Some errors can be cleared but, not all.

NOTE: LED will not go out until switch 1 or 2 is kept pressed for three seconds or more. Also, pushing on switch 1 or 2 will not turn off LED as long as the error persists.

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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
Hi cat master , I have ordered a parts book should be here in the 2 weeks , I cleared L1 red light but it has returned , engine still loading up when put under minimal force what signals the second hydronic pump to come in ,I understand that the boom is the only function that requires it to come in ,it feels like it comes in and pressure slows motor or it doesn't come in and has low power , auto engine speed is intermittent working some times and not others it tens to drop in revs but is very slow or doesn't always rev back up when controls are moved can u shed some light on this please
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 6 years ago

Great, thanks for the update and bonus. I do appreciate the support.

I went back and check details about the #1 LED and saw the backup switch in the on position can also cause the light to come on. Verify the operation of the back switch. It seems I did find some models that did not turn off the controller when in backup mode. However, this should prevent the engine speed control from working. I wonder if you are losing power to the controller intermittently?

Both pump receive the same signal from the PRV to prevent engine stalling. Internally, the valves in the control head also regulate output as does the negative flow control lines from each half of the valve. Remember your main control valve is two sections as is the pump. One side is feed by one pump and the opposite side is feed by the other pump. Flow is divided or combined in the center section. This is primarily used for travel and implement operations and not for boom or stick regulation. The external piping from one side to the other is how flow is doubled and speed increases for correct cycle times.

You normal cycle times are close. I bad cycle time is normally twice that of a good cycle. (Boom up would take 8 seconds instead of 4 and stick in or out would also take 8 second instead of 4.) Since your time is much greater and intermittent, I am thinking one of you solenoid hoses is not connected to the proper line and must be sending pilot control pressure to correct end when it should.

If you are staling the engine when this happens, it could be a restrictor in a line or a blockage in the return flow.

Have you noticed the problem causing boom down to act strange too? Or is this only a stick extend retract issue?

The engine speed control is signaled by pressure switches on the main control valve. These tell the controller when the implements are not being used and then the controller will turn on the engine throttle control to reduce engine speed, after six seconds of no implement use.

If the switch fails in an open circuit state, the controller will reduce the engine speed and it will stay at idle. You can switch the automatic control off and engine will return to the manual throttle setting. Any other wiring problem should trigger a light code on the controller.

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Customer reply replied 6 years ago
Hi catmaster I have received parts book from the USA but pages with plumbing to solinoids sent clear enough to determine where they go is it possible to install the prv in wrong , the L1 light won't clear . What sensor tells controller to turn on the red light .
Cheers Wayne
Mechanic: catmastertech, Technician replied 6 years ago

The controller senses the current draw through the wires and solenoid. If current is too high or too low, it turns on the light.

You cannot install the prv wrong, it does not have any internal ground so the connection will not matter.

I would say it is the controller but, you said the machine does not operate with the backup switch on either. That points the problem is in the hydraulic system, not the electronic system.

I wasn't sure how a new book would look, some are better than the original books.

It is difficult to trace out all the lines but, try to eliminate the easy ones first. The things that work right should be you hand control lines. You problem is likely in the solenoid manifold lines. Look for marker tags (if they have not broken off) and try to match them to the lines in the book. Tags are marked L or R with a number and have different color. I don't know what they mean but, they do help trace lines.

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catmastertech, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 3,998
3,998 Satisfied Customers
Experience: Field service technician for CAT 19 years.

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Chris (aka- Moose)

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Steve

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JBFixxer

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