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My Cat E200B excavator bucket stops working the same time…

My Cat E200B excavator bucket...
My Cat E200B excavator bucket stops working the same time the left track stops as well.lift boom up and track with both tracks and the bucket starts to work again as well as the left track.serial# *****
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12/19/2014
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Dan
Dan, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 14,844
Experience: 17+ yrs. shop and field experience with all major brands of heavy equipment and trucks - 1995 WyoTech graduate.
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Hi my name is***** will try to help. It sounds like either one pump is not stroking up for two pump flow or a possible relief valve problem. Remove and inspect the relief valve cartridge for damaged o rings or debris holding it open. If ok then check your in tank return filter for signs of fine metal that would indicate a pump failure occurring. If non is found the next step is to test your system pressures and compare to OEM specs and to test the signal pressure to your pumps to confirm there is signal pressure when a function is operated. When you have to operate another function to compensate it usually means one pump is not stroking up. Let me know
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
The relief valve was the first thing we checked, all filters checked and replaced with new ones. The system pressure was checked this week and also When the bucket & left track stop I still have swing,stick,boom and right track working fine.There are 3 spools for boom,bucket and left track in that control valve, oil goes into boom first next bucket then left track and when bucket stops I still have the boom working fine.The entire pump was rebuilt 2 years ago, being used here on the farm the hours would be minimal.The machine has the Misubishi engine, I understand the not stroking the pump but with everything working in both control valves except the bucket and left track and they are side by side spools in the same valve body.with already checking your above mentioned ideas what is left? Can it be related to one of the pressure sensors or electrical and how do I check them?I have had a local farm equipment mechanic out who just checked the lines for fluid and I have another mechanic out who does most of this work for all the companies here and who is in my mind awfully good, he is doing some more research this week on this machine for me so I thought I would try this avenue and maybe come up with something else that he could try when he comes back over to work on it again.So some more help would be appreciated if possible.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Thanks for the update.Do you by chance have the service book for your serial number machine? Your pumps consist of two main pumps coupled together where the functions are split between them. Then you have a pilot or charge pump for pilot pressure/control pressure which is usually around 500-600 PSI range. The pilot pressure is what shifts the spools in the main control valve and also strokes the pump to full flow when the pump gets signal/pilot pressure to the small signal lines going to the pump control valves on the pumps. When running multiple functions at one time both pumps will be signaled to full flow to have enough GPM output to handle the demand. When one pump either has a problem or is not getting that signal pressure, you will be running on one pump flow instead of two which falls in line with the symptoms you are experiencing. The first thing to do is if you still have the filter you removed or if there has been some hours since that filter change, cut open the filter and inspect a cut out sample after squeezing the excess oil out in a vise. Look for fine metal that would indicate an internal pump problem. One pump can be bad and you will still have functions but you will not have enough GPM to keep up with running multiple functions at once and is why when you pull another function it strokes the other pump to compensate for the GPM loss from the other pump. The manual will cover how to test signal pressure and your main and pilot pressures. If there is metal in the filter then it is an indication of another pump problem. If the system was not completely flushed from the last failure, that contamination over time can ruin your rebuilt pump. Look on the pump for two control valves with small pilot lines to them... Tee in and test the pressures going to both when you operate your functions. I can tell you that the left and right travel get flow from different pumps and the other circuits are split between the pumps but i cant say off the top of my head which function for which pump so travel is what you can start with to check signal pressure to both pumps. Pin the track sprocket to prevent movement.
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
The front pump is for the left track. when I rebuilt the pump everything was drained twice and filters added twice to make sure it was clear of all materials.I did the filters when this started again and cut them open and nothing in them. I have all the service paperwork for the complete system that I got from our Cat dealer up here.can the charge pump cause this? Where only the bucket and left track are affected and no other functions I didn't consider the charge pump as if it was the trouble I should have the trouble on all functions.
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Thanks for the updated info. If the other functions work there shouldnt be a charge pressure problem but check the pilot stainer behind the hydraulic tank in the pump compartment for aluminum just to be sure. You are correct that all functions should be affected if low pilot pressure. This may be two separate issues you have here if you have confirmed signal pressure at both pumps and no metal, you could have failed rotary manifold seals for the travel problem or a drive motor issue. Rotary manifold seal replacement is part of a travel problem troubleshooting step as it is less time to replace the common wear seals then to adapt in to test. You could have pressure bypassing in the manifold. If the seals are replaced and you still have left travel problems then remove the case drain at the drive motor and run a hose into a bucket from the drive case drain port,pin the track sprocket and engage that drive. If it shoots out under high volume and pressure that drive motor is bad. You should have only a low volume of case drain oil. Try swapping your reliefs from another circuit with bucket and left travel to see if the problem moves. You may have a relief that is sticking intermittently.I would monitor your pressures the see what they are doing when this is happening so you know if the pressure is dropping off. Let me know
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Are you saying that the bucket and left track problems can not be caused by the same trouble in the machine and they would need to be two separate troubles as you explained above?
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Sorry for the confusion. I am saying it could be possible there are two separate issues going on but to isolate it the pressures will need to be checked and monitored while this is happening to determine if both pumps are stroking up as they should or if there is a loss of pilot pressure to either of those circuits to shift the spool, if there is a loss of circuit pressure in only those two circuits.... One other thing that comes to mind if those two spools are side by side you might have a crack or problem in the main control valve allowing oil to bypass. Monitoring your pressures on those two circuits will help isolate this further.
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
I'll get the mechanic to do all the checks you gave me, thank you. Is the control valve repairable if that is the problem
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
If it is a crack in the valve body then it will need to be replaced but if it is seals then it can be resealed.
Dan
Dan, Technician
Category: Construction and Road Equipment
Satisfied Customers: 14,844
Experience: 17+ yrs. shop and field experience with all major brands of heavy equipment and trucks - 1995 WyoTech graduate.
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Thank you Dan i'll let you know how it works out once I get the mechanic over in the next week or so
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Your welcome. Ill look forward to hearing the results. Hope you had a great weekend!
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Afternoon Dan, I floated my machine home today and have the mechanic coming early next week to do the checks that you supplied me with and I will let you know how we make out.In a related question I have a neighbor that ran a E300B excavator and he had similar troubles he thinks it was the electronic power unit controller that they finally had to replace.Does that sound factual or just a second hand opinion?If possible is there a way to test the controller?Again thank you for all your help and i'll let you know what we find next week.
Al
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Thanks for the update. This sounds more hydraulic to me but there should be a switch behind the seat to disable the controller. You can try the switch if youd like to bypass the controller to see if there is any changes. Let me know.
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Afternoon Dan, the mechanic was here this afternoon and we covered everything that you had sent me. The mechanic has a couple things he wanted me to ask you as he is coming back in the morning.
He put gauges in loadsence lines for pump on rear pump which feeds left track,bucket.At idle 320 lbs but when bucket and left track stop working has 0 psi.pulled regulator out cleaned and polished while bucket is working it changes anywhere from 100 psi to 320 psi and all functions fine. pulled main relief valveout and all fine. wondering what you think I should check next.also when bucket stops working the boom and arm are slow as if pump is not stroking for 2 pumps floweven though gauge reads 0 psi
thank you in advance Dan
Al Miller
Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Could you send me your thoughts on this as I expect the mechanic here around 8 this morning and he has already completed all the work you had sent previouslly sent me to do
Al
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Hi Al, Thanks for the update. First let me know if the in tank return filter has fine metal which will look like metallic glitter in the oil. This would indicate a pump/component failure occurring. Also, in the pump compartment next to the hydraulic tank there should be a small pilot strainer with an element inside. Look for aluminum or metal in the pilot strainer that would indicate a failed pilot(charge) pump causing a loss of signal/pilot pressure. Let me know the results.
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
he should be here in a half hour as soon as we try this i'll let you know.
Thank you
Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Dan I just sent my daughter in to get the filters before we take them off.If it was the pilot pump wouldn't it effect all the functions and not just the bucket and left track?
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Yes but pilot pressure should be in the 500-550 range and if you are not getting that it could be the pump or a PRV problem. Metal in the pilot strainer is a quick confirmation of a pilot pump failure. Copy and paste this link in your browser for the pressure specs.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/72lz4s44jicxvgf/Cat_E200B_pressure_spec.PNG
Remove negative flow lines and cap them, leave pump ports open. Record both pump pressures and PRV pressure when bucket quits.
Also record all other function pressures on both pumps when bucket quits.
Let me know the results
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Dan here are the measurements pump pressures everything was at about 3200 psi. Its about minus 22 today so maybe a little lower with the oil and the main relief can be turned up.Pilot oil pressure was at 520 psi. The bucket would not act up with the negative flow line disconnected
Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Dan thank you for the pressure sheet you sent earlier, I sent you the measurements that we had and i'm thinking the mechanic is going to drop by tomorrow afternoon and carry on ,it's supposed to be up around minus 5 by then and not as hard on us old people.Again thank you
Al
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Thanks for the updated info Al. You have a difficult problem on your hands here. I was Field service for Cat years ago and I also went over these results with another expert who is field service for Cat. As you see your Pilot pressure is OK. PRV (Pressure reducing valve)pressure is different than pilot pressure however.
The higher PRV pressure (around 350) de-strokes the pump. Lower PRV pressure allows the pump to up-stroke (around 80) Manual override sets it to a flat setting but, not sure what it is.
Try to get the main pressures up to normal and if the bucket does not quit with negative flow lines off, the bucket spool may be the issue allowing high negative flow when it should not be there. It should only have pressure when a function is stalled. This tells the pump flow is "negative" and to de-stroke.
These types of problems can be difficult to find.I would check the bucket spool and the negative flow valve on that bank. Let me know
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Dan thank you and i'll let you know how it works
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Sounds good Al
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Dan I just finally got my excavator clear of snow and put on the main relief valve. Here is what we have now.
Installed new relief valve. Main pressure at 4600PSi. Had negative flow lines off front pump was at 4600 and rear pump was at 0 psi. Got bucket to work and hooked up negative flowlines it would give me the 4600 on the rear pump.It only seems to act up when full dump of bucket bottoms out.I’m sorry for the delay getting back but I had 7+ ft of snow not counting the piles I pushed up here.
Thanks
Al
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Thanks for the update Al. I would check the bucket spool in the main control valve for damage, wear, and scoring if the bucket function is the only problem. Check for damaged springs/hardware in the end caps and also be sure the spool moves freely in its bore. Let me know.
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Morning Dan. no scoring or marks on spool and it moves fine covers and springs in caps are good also.Also removed and checked the other spools in the control valve. left travel and boom they all looked good as well.I know that the solenoids should either work or not work but is there a solenoid that controls the bucket,left travel and could it be a wire problem,is there a test for it.Is there a definitive test I could do for the complete control valve. With their cost it would be nice to be sure.
Thank you
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Let me put my thoughts together on this as sometimes these types of problems can be difficult to find and diagnose. Ill also confer with another colleague to see if he has any other suggestions or thoughts.
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Customer reply replied 7 years ago
Thank you
Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Pleasure to help. He is usually around in the eves so it will likely be later before I hear back from him.
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Mechanic: Dan, Technician replied 7 years ago
Hi, Here is some information that I was able to get for you.
Negative Flow Control Signal
When there are no cylinders or motors in operation, or when fine control of the pilot control valves is needed for exact control of main pump output, a negative control pressure signal results from flow through valve blocks. This signal is used to decrease pump output. When used with the Automatic Engine Control (AEC) system, the system services to reduce fuel consumption and noise.
Front pump oil in passage (16) flows through orifice (25), return passage (1) and on to tank through line (27). Flow through orifice (25) results in a negative control pressure signal that goes through line (37) to port (38) of front pump (42). This negative control pressure destrokes the pump.
Likewise, rear pump oil in passage (3) flows through orifice (28), through return passage (1) and on to tank through line (27). Flow through orifice (28) results in a negative control pressure signal that goes through line (36) to port (41) of pump (43). This negative control pressure destrokes the pump by causing the spool of the main pump regulator to move against its spring. This decreases the inclination angle of the swashplate of the main pump which decreases pump flow. Pump flow decreases from 183 to 35 liter/min (48.8 to 9.2 U.S. gpm), depending on negative flow control pressure.
See the section, Negative Flow Rate Control, under Pump Regulation, for further information.
Negative control relief valve (31) [valve (30) for right control valve block] limits the pressure of the negative flow control signal, based on return flow through the control valve.
Return oil from center bypass passage (3) flows through orifice (28) to the return line (1). Oil flow through orifice (28) results in a pressure felt in line (36). The more oil allowed through passage (3) and orifice (28), the more pressure increases in passage (3) and line (36) to the pump.
When flow through orifice (28) has increased to the point where pressure in passage (3) is greater than the force of spring (48), check valve (49) will move to the right. This allows direct flow through to return passage (1).
Negative Flow Rate Control
The negative flow control keeps output flow at minimum when all the control levers are in the neutral position. When the control levers are slowly moved, output flow increases gradually until the bypass passages in the control valves are closed. Inching operations are done by this control.
To be sure you are referring to the right and left track/travel motor the left side is with the sprocket/drive motor to the rear of the operator with the idler to the front and vise versa on the right side.
The valve body has the right travel and bucket together. This will be weak when the right/rear pump is weak. If it was the left travel the swing would also be weak when the left/front pump is weak.
The front pump is to the flywheel (drive pump) and the rear pump (driven pump) is to the outside.
Disconnecting the negative flow line should not cause the pump to quit. It should only prevent pump overloading at a stall condition.
He nor I have not had trouble from the NFC check valves so, can not say what a bad one would do.
The other expert suggested to try crossing the lines or swapping the check valves but, thinks you will find the problem in the controller of the rear pump.
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