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I have a CAT C7 that is running rough on startup in the cold.

We had an injector replaced...

I have a CAT C7 that is running rough on startup in the cold. We had an injector replaced last year but are to convinced it was the problem. The truck starts hard after long cranking and runs very rough in the cold. Sometimes it will findiscriminately shutdown and be difficult to restart.
Upon priming fuel with hand primer a hissing is heard from under the valve cover.

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Answered in 13 minutes by:

2/19/2013

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 10 years ago

Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert

Category: Construction and Road Equipment

Satisfied Customers: 10,344

Experience: I am ASE Master Certified.

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Hi. Thanks for using JA! I will try and help you out.

Does the check engine light come on when it starts?

Customer reply replied 10 years ago

The only code iris throwing is code 70. Inlet heater not functioning.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 10 years ago

Thanks for the information Kraig.

It sounds like your engine is having the fuel leak down out of the head when it is shut off. I have seen this many times on C7 engines. There are two things that can cause this.

The first and most common is a faulty fuel pressure regulator on the back if the head. I have replaced many of these over the years for this problem. I would consider replacing this first.

Second is a faulty fuel transfer pump. Both of these items are suppose to hold fuel in the head when the engine is off. If fuel is leaking out, one if these is faulty and allowing fuel to leak out. 4 out of 5 times it the regulator.

Please reply back if you need more help or have more questions. I am happy to assist.

Customer reply replied 10 years ago

What would cause an air hiss from inside the rear part of the engine upon hand priming? I will hiss for a sec then stop.

Also would either of these issues cause the truck to stop running even though its been running for hours? Sometimes it will just die at idle even warmed up.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 10 years ago

Yes they can cause the engine to shut down.

The C7 must maintain a fuel pressure between 65 and 85 psi at all times. At idle its near 65. If the regulator or pump is faulty. It can allow the pressure to drop enough to shut the engine down.

That hiss is the air coming out if the regulator. That tells me there is definitely air in the system. Once you get the air out, the hissing stops.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 10 years ago

Ok, if air were to get I to the system under other circumstances would it normally exhaust through the regulator or is the air his a tell that the regulator is bad?

Also what of that code 70? Inlet heater malfunction.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 10 years ago

Yes it would exhaust through the regulator. When the engine is why off, the regulator should close. If it does not, it allows fuel to leak out and air to come in. Most often the regulator is bad. However, the fuel pump has a valve as well that should close. If it does not, it will also allow he fuel to leak out. The tough part is determining which is bad. I always try a regulator first. Like I was saying, it's bad 4 out if 5 times.

As far as the inlet heater code. There are two items that cause it not to operate.

The first is a blown fuse and no power to the relay. The power is supplied b the truck, not the engine ECM. Second is a faulty inlet heater relay. You can check for power on the two wire connector going to the relay. If it has power, the relay is most likely bad. If there is no power, you mos likely have a blown fuse.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 10 years ago

We will change the regulator and get back to you sir.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 10 years ago

Sounds good Kraig. Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 10 years ago

Where is the fuel transfer pump located and what would the dealer call it?
Also where is the regulator?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 10 years ago

The fuel transfer pump is located on the drivers side of the engine. It is held on by 4 bolts onto the back of the high pressure pump. There is a special procedure to replace it. The dealer would call it a fuel transfer pump.

The fuel pressure regulator is screwed into a fitting on the back if the cylinder head. The return fuel line then connects to it.

Customer reply replied 10 years ago

Ok. Well be in touch very soon.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 10 years ago

OK. Sounds good.

Customer reply replied 10 years ago

I will rate you as soon as I test your conclusions. That won't be til next week. But test assures you will be rated. And I will not be able to close this until my issue has been resolved. Tha k you for your patience.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 10 years ago

You are very welcome Kraig. I am happy to assist.

This question will stay open for 6 weeks after leaving a rating. So if you did leave a rating, I am here to continue answering any more questions you may have without any additional cost to you.

If you would like to wait to rate. That is perfectly fine. I assume JA must have sent you a reminder email about rating. The system automatically does this in case a customer forgot to leave a rating.

Let me know how things work out and if you need more help. I am happy to assist.

Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert

Category: Construction and Road Equipment

Satisfied Customers: 10,344

Experience: I am ASE Master Certified.

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Customer reply replied 9 years ago

CatMan,

We have changed e fuel regulator on our CAT C7. The truck seemed ok then we have received word that it will die almost every time yoit ringgit down to idle.

is this indicative of the other fix you told us to. Try second or something Tank shanksTank shanks

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Hey Kraig.

If the engine light is not coming on you may have a weak fuel transfer pump. I have seen this before. To verify, I would connect a psi gauge and measure the pressure. If the pump is the problem. You will see the pressure get low. Way below 65 psi.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok what port should we tap into?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

There should be a quick connect port at the front of the engine after the secondary fuel filter.

If its low you will know you have a pump problem.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok I will check into this and let ya know. Thanks

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

You are very welcome Kraig.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Oh sorry One more thing, if the truck runs strong all other times than idle it would still be a fuel transfer pump?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Yes. What happens is if the relief valve is sticking open it will cause low fuel pressure at idle. At idle the relief should be closed.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok thanks ill be in touch!

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Sounds good.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Sir I can't find a fuel tester that will fit that quick disconnect. Will a compucheck tester fit? And if not do you know where I can find one?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Yes a compucheck should work. If not, I can get you a Cat part number.

But if you can also remove it and install something else if you like.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok,

I assume we need to remove the entire heui pump which is also the injector pump? That part that sits just above the air compressor with the fuel transfer p p mounted onto the back?

Now, we need to know the procedure for this process if you would be so kind. From what we can see we need to pull the front cover off the engine and look for timing marks? Or not worry about it?

thank you

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Hey Kraig.

You do not have to remove the front cover to remove the pump. Also, the Heui pump is not timed to the engine. No timing needed.

Once you get the pump off, you will need to stand it up in a vice with the drive gear of the pump facing down. There is a special bolt tool needed to remove the fuel pump from the back of the Heui pump. The Cat part number is(NNN) NNN-NNNN It's basically a bolt with a cut off head. There are four bolts that hold the fuel pump onto the Heui pump. Remove the top left bolt then insert the bolt tool. This holds the back of the Heui pump together. If someone just removes all four bolts and removes the fuel pump, it can damage the Heui pump.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

ok, is it copact to say that the injector pump is in the same pushing as the heui pump? The only thing with fuel lines goon to it is the joke e that the fuel pump is mounted onto. It is about the same size as the air compressor and sits directly above the compressor. That is the part we are to remove? So just bust the lines and unbolt it and pull it out?

Also the kit that came with the fuel transfer pump had four small bolts as well as one long bolt. It is a socket head allen bolt about 6" long. Tat wouldn't be the tool would it?

Thanks for the clarificationclarification

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Yes. There is a Heui pump that bolts to the front cover. And the fuel supply pump bolts to the back of the Heui pump. The Heui pump supplies high pressure oil to the injectors to activate them. The fuel pump supplies fuel to the injectors.

Yes it's above the compressor. It's pretty much an unbolt and pull out.

The single bolt is the tool bolt. The other four are just the mounting bolts.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

I hate to beat a dead horse butnim still confused.

So these cat acert engines don't have a traditional injector pump? And the heui somehow exerts its high pressure onto the fuel to put into the cylinders and high pressure?

Your other info is good I was just wondering about the processprocess

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

That is correct. There is not have a traditional injection pump. The C7 uses high pressure oil to activate the injectors. They are electronically controlled. The fuel pumps job is to keep the injectors full of fuel.

Let me know if you still need more help. I am happy to assist.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

I may just be an idiot but how do you remove the big oil line off the back top of the heui? It isn't threaded. Some sort of push connect?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

There is a special tool needed to remove it. The part number is(NNN) NNN-NNNN It looks like a two prong fork. It slides around the line and releases it.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Any idea on where to get it, sir? Anything local like napa or oreilly?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

To my knowledge. It can only be gotten form a Cat dealer or Truck dealer. I am sorry.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

So replacing the fuel transfer pump on the heui is just a simple unbolt and replace?

I need to remove one bolt and insert he tool then remove the four transfer pump bolts and remove pump? Reassemble in reverse?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Yes that is correct. I wish it could be done with the Heui pump on the engine but you can't. The Heui pump needs to be removed and stood up with the front gear facing down. Then yes. Unbolt and remove with tool and install.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Sir!

The transfer pump came with an oring kit that has two large orings(about 4" dia), two medium size(about 1"), two three very small (about .25").

Do youn have any idea what these are for. I didn't see any orings when I removed the heui

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Hey Kraig.

One should be for the front end on the Heui pump to seal in the front cover. One should be for be fuel pump to seal on the Heui. The others are for the fittings on both.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok, we changed the fuel transfer pump and the truck started. We have yet to run the truck to see if our problem shows up again but upon restart the truck now has a strange vibration/shaking. it used to idle smoothly now it seems to have a shake.

Any thoughts?

Oh, and when I I went to prime the e fuel system I could audibly hear his unsung sound coming from somewhere (sounded like from under valve cover) toward the backside of the engine.

Everytimei would pump the hiss would get louder. Then it would stop after 10-15 secs

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Thanks for the update Kraig.

The only time in have seen it vibrate is right after the install. This was due to air in the system. This should clear up after running for a while.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Terrific. I'll keep you posted as we put her through her paces.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Ok. Sounds good.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok well we are now having amother prob with this truck. The truck is now struggling to get up rpms. Intermittently you can mash the throttle and it won't just rev up, it will take it a few seconds to struggle it's way up to peak romp. we just changed the fuel filter on Monday and our guy pulled the filter and found aluminum shavings inside it. so could this be the same prob we've been having or a new one? And best I can figure the only aluminum part is the hand primer.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Thanks for the information.

I would remove the fuel pressure regulator on the back of the head and see if there is any metal debris in there. If there is, the injectors have been damaged by the debris. Unfortunately I have seen this before.

I have seen the Heui pump begin to fail and put metal debris into the injectors. When his happens, you will find this debris in the system and the engine will struggle like yours is doing. This is kinda a known problem on C7 engines. I am sorry. I wish inhae better news.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok well do some checking. Btw, is an injector job doable by us without a CAT ET? I've heard of something I do with trim codes or something.
We can physically change the injectors but need to know if its advisable to have it done at CAT. we just really are trying to do it ourselves.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Cat ET is needed to install the injector software files. Each C7 injector has its own software that needs to be installed in the ECM when an injector is replaced. The software actually comes with the new injector on a CD.

You can replace the injectors with not much trouble at all. But to install the injector files, Cat ET is the only tool that can do this.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Do you know if a CAT field tech could load the files on site after we install the injectors? Is that something CAT could do?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Actually you could drive the truck to the dealer after installing the injectors and have them program the software. It will no hurt to drive the truck for a short time without having the correct software in the ECM.

Just make sure to write down the 12 digit serial number of each injector and the 4 digit code too. And which cylinder each serial number is located. They should be able to program it for you. I know we do this for folks all the time.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Great. Well keep you posted

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

OK. Sounds good.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok, we replaced the hand primer because it was shooting fuel out the seal as well as aluminum shavings. The new one did the identical thing.

We pulled the regulator and it had very minimal shavings, like three tiny pieces. Would this be a diagnosis? If so we would need to replace what? All injectors? Heui? Transfer pump? And clean the internal head fuel lines somehow?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Thanks for the update.

Three small shavings are enough. There should not be any shavings at all.

When shavings are found it means the injectors are damaged. The Heui pump started all this by sending debris to the injectors. Unfortunately they will all need to be replaced.

Of me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok, so injectors, heui, regulators, and cleaning of the fuel rail?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Yes that is correct. It's important to clean the fuel and oil rails of the head good. Just to make sure there is no more debris that can contaminate the injectors.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Ok what would you recommend for the cleaning of both rails? jack up the rear? Pull plugs? What procedures?

Btw we will be tipping you for this extra assistance.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Hey Kraig.

I like to remove all the plugs from both the ful and oil rail. Then use a solvent like a brake clean to flush it all out. I of course have the injectors out while doing this. Once it is flushed good, I then use an air nozzle to blow each rail area out.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Do we need to replace the new fuel transfer pump?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

To be honest it's a good idea to replace it since you found metal debris in the system. Replacing would make sure no debris will be in the system. I would hate to leave something out and cause injector damage later.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

So if we pull the injectors and spray a bunch of solvents into the rails won't that flush that crap into the cylinders via the open injector holes? Because doesn't the fuel flow through the head to a specific place on the injector in leu of a fuel line screwing onto the injector itself?

And should we raise the rear of the truck to facilitate flushing?

Also how much time would it typically take a shop to complete a repair of this magnitude?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Hey Kraig.

Raising the truck up is a good idea.

Yes there will be some if the solvent and debris will go into the cylinders but the debris is small enough not to hurt the cylinders. You could out a small towel in each lower injector bore to help catch it. I know some guys that like doing that.

Normally this job to replace all these parts and flush the system is around a 10-12 hour job.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Thank you sir, we will get started. That helps so much

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

You are very welcome. I am happy to assist.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Sir, we were wondering things:

1) which plugs w should we pull to flush the fuel rail as well as the oil rail?

2) what is the preferred method of pulling those injectors out of the head? We don't want to mess anything up!

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

There are several Allen plugs in the head for the fuel and oil. There is a big Allen plug on the back of the head. It should be removed. Remove as many as you can to help flush the system out.

Cat makes a special tool to remove the injectors but most folks do not use it. Most folks out a small 3/8 shallow socket beside the injector and then out a ladies foot prybar on top of the socket and hook under the hold down bolt bracket, then pry up.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Sir,

What do we do with carbon buildup on the injector seats. some of our injectors were very "carbony", if you'll excuse my made-up word, and others were not. But after cleaning we can see that some seats in the head still have a lot of carbon on them.

Also what is the best way to get those injectors to sit down enough for the bolts to engage, and then do you use the bolts to seat the injector or do the bolts just hold it down after you've seated it.

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

Hey Kraig.

You can use a spray cleaner and a rag to clean the head. As long as there is no debris on the seat and its smooth, it will be OK. It does not have to be completely shiny clean.

You should be able to push the injector in far enough to get the bolts started. Then use the bolts to pull it down to its seated.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

What should we torque the injector bolts to, also what is the torque for the HEUI mounting bolts?

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

The HEUI pump bolts torque to 41 foot pounds.

The injector bolts torque to 9 foot pounds. The turbo side bolt is a shoulder bolt. Make sure it bottoms out first then torque the other bolt last.

Let me know if you need more help.

Customer reply replied 9 years ago

Thank you

Mechanic: Cat Man, Cat Engine Expert replied 9 years ago

You are very welcome Kraig.

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