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sebring: 2.5L..no spark crank sensor ok cam sensor ok..coil…

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1998 2.5L sebring no spark...
1998 2.5L sebring no spark crank sensor ok cam sensor ok how to check coil
Submitted: 8 years ago.Category: Chrysler
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Answered in 4 hours by:
6/29/2010
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
sprinkles08
sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician
Category: Chrysler
Satisfied Customers: 24,209
Experience: ASE Master & Advanced level certified, Chrysler Master Certified, Trans and Hybrid Specialist
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Hello and welcome to JustAnswer!

 

How have you determined the cam and crank sensors are ok?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

I have 8v, ground and 5v on the proper wires and the 5v comes and goes as I rotate the engine by hand, I 've also got .6 ohms on the primary pins 1-2 on the distributor and 10k from the coil port to gnd, it's supposed to be 12k -18k, am I checking it right? and is 10k enough. could it possibly be the shutdown relay.

I hope you can help.

Thanks

Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Do you have fuel pressure?

INjector pulse?

Does the dark green/orange wire at the injectors or coil have 12v when cranking?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I disconnected the fuel line first and fuel pumps while cranking, I checked the voltage at injector plug while cranking and do have 11.5v
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Let's check right at the distributor now. There is a connector on the back side with the same dark green/orange wire. Check it for battery voltage while cranking.

 

There is also a solid black wire in the main distributor connector. Make sure this one has perfect continuity to ground.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
the wire is orange and it has 8v and the 2nd wire from the bottom which is black is grounded
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

We aren't worried about the orange wire yet, we're checking for ASD voltage on the dark green/orange wire in the single wire connector on the distributor. The orange wire you found was in the large connector, the dark green/orange wire is in the single wire connector I mentioned earlier. Check that and let me know what you see.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
the green and orange wire on the smaller connector shows to ground with the key off and 12v when the car is turned over.
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Ok. Attach the alligator clip of a test light to battery positive. Use a test light with a regular bulb, not a powered test light or LED. Unplug the large connector on the distributor and probe the brown/red wire. Watch the test light while cranking the engine and see if it flashes.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
There is no brown/red. There is a brown/tan wire and an orange, and one is black/gray. Then a space and two black.
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
Is this a two door coupe, four door, or convertible?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

convertable, black/blue, orange, brown/yellow, empty black, black/gray

Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I didn't get a responce
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

I'm a full time tech and I'm at work.

 

The wire you need is the black/gray.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
the black/gray wire does not light the test light when cranked the black wire is to gnd
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Unplug the powertrain control module connectors and then recheck for a short to ground.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
unpluged both large connectors black/gray not shorted to gnd
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

You're using a regular unpowered test light with an actual bulb, not an LED?

 

ARe you in a brightly lit area? If it's very bright it could be hard to see the flashing.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

with key off it lights with key on it goes out and does not light when cranked

Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

You're using a regular unpowered test light with an actual bulb, not an LED?

 

ARe you in a brightly lit area? If it's very bright it could be hard to see the flashing.

 

Have you ever checked for fault codes at all?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I have checked the fault codes and am getting none. I checked with minimal light and when the key is turned on the fused test light lights for about a second when the engine is turned over the light goes out and does not light at all, when the key is turned off the test light lights for about 5 to 7 seconds and goes out.
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
If all testing has been done as described and there are no fault codes setting it sounds like the coil driver is burnt out of the PCM and the PCM will need to be replaced. The PCM pulses ground on the black/gray wire to produce spark. You know since the ASD wire is powered up while cranking that the PCM is seeing good cam and crank signals and they are in sync, so it should be firing the coil.
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I removed the cap on the pcm harnessplug and the results are the same as above is this definetly the problem, that module is $270 or $329
Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I have not received an answer on the above question and I previously asked about checking the coil resistance is it checked from where the cap goes into the coil to gnd that calls for 12,000 to 18,000 ohms and I only got 10,000
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

If the PCM isn't driving the coil but it has good cam and crank signals then it pretty much has to be a bad PCM. Since I didn't do the testing myself or use a scan tool to properly diagnose it by actuating the coil driver, I couldn't give a 100% guarantee the PCM is the problem.

 

The secondary coil resistance calls for 12,500 to 18,000 ohms. 10,000 ohms is far enough out of range to warrant coil (distributor) replacement. It's not unheard of for a coil to fail and take out the driver, so this could have caused the PCM problem.

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

I asked about the coil testing early in the trouble shooting process and if I was checking it properely and now you respond that the coil could have taken out the pcm, so three days later now I need a distributor and a pcm for $500+ which are the only possible solutions. I could have replaced the dist. and possibly not have taken out the pcm

unhappy!

Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

The PCM not driving the coil is why it won't start, that is the problem we've been trying to diagnose this whole time. The bad coil taking out the PCM is why won't start. You couldn't have replaced the distributor and got away with not replacing the PCM at any point.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I never got an answer if I was even checking the coil right and still don't know
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Yes, you were checking the secondary resistance.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
So if I replace the pcm without the distributor I could take out the new pcm
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Yes. If primary or secondary coil resistance is low or shorted it can take out the coil driver in the PCM. In your case it sounds as if a bad coil is what took out the coil driver in the PCM.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

so if I go to the parts store and check the resistance between pins 1-2 for .6-.8 ohms and from the coil output to the case for 12,000-18,000 and don't have it that distributor is bad?

I guess my only choice is to replace both parts which I could have guessed at a week ago.

Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
Yes, if the primary or secondary coil resistances are out of range then the coil is bad and the distributor needs to be replaced.


Edited by sprinkles08 on 7/3/2010 at 10:22 PM EST
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I really wish that my origional question about checking the coil would have been answered and maby the pcm would't have been trashed during all the cranking while testing.
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

The PCM was trashed well before you asked the question. The lost coil driver in the PCM is the reason the car died and woudln't restart.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Do you think it's worth trying to replace these parts from a junk yard or not worth it and do I difinately need the dist.
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Yes, if the coil tests bad you need a distributor.

 

Junkyard parts are hit and miss, especially with electrical items. If you do go with used parts I highly recommend a warranty. Another problem that comes with used parts is if the car still doesn't start after you replace everything, you don't know if there is something else going on or if you just got bad parts.

 

If you use a used PCM you need to be sure if your car has the factory security (VTSS). If it doesn't have VTSS and you install a PCM from a car that did it will infect your car with the system. It would then start and die as the PCM shut the fuel injectors off to kill the engine. The only fix for this contamination would be to replace the PCM and BCM together with known VTSS-free units or new ones from the dealer.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
If I replace these parts from the parts store I get a lifetime guarantee on the dist.and one year on the pcm but if the coil goes it will wipe out the pcm again. I have read the dist. are a common problem with these cars is it usually the coil.
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

The coil doesn't always take the PCM with it when it goes bad. It does happen sometimes but most coil failures just result in a no start.

 

These distributors do fail, and are one of the more common failures on these cars. Sometimes they are replaced because of a bad coil and sometimes because of a bad cam sensor.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
Is it possible that just my dist. is the problem or is my pcm definately bad
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

The PCM isn't driving the coil. Even if you had a good coil the PCM isn't pulsing ground to it to even fire it. If cam and crank signals are good and there are no codes but the coil driver isn't firing it's very likely to be a bad coil driver. I would prefer to actuate the coil driver with a scan tool to see if it could be forced to produce spark, but without a high-end scan tool it's not something that can be done.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

As per our lengthly conversation and extensive testing procedures you determined that the pcm and the distributor were both bad, I went to my local parts store and ordered a pcm and they had a dist. in stock, I checked the new dist and the resistance was only .57ohms on the primary and 23k on the secondary, we determined it appeared bad so they ordered another one, it came in and tested .61 and 14.6k on the secondary, the pcm didn't arrive, I installed the dist. and the car started, I sure am glad that pcm didn't arrive or I would have been stuck with a $300 part I appearently didn't need and I could have saved a week without the vehicle. If at the beginning of this process you would have answered the question about the coil instead of at the end when you determined the bad dist is probably what took out the pcm I could have saved alot of time and aggravation, I hope you didn't charge my card that I didn't accept.

Unhappy: but at least the car is now running Thanks for trying.

Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

I can't be there to do the electrical diagnostics myself, so I can't guarantee the results. If you had done the diagnostics per my instructions and I got correct results for the tests I had you do then we wouldn't have come to needing a PCM.

 

I don't get credit for my time and you don't pay for an answer unless you click the Accept button. Good luck.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago

I replaced the dist. and the car started and ran good, I reassembled everything on sunday and all appeared fine, I took it out for a ride about five miles and it ran well, I shut it off for about an hour and restarted it ok,on the way home it sputtered a little and the rpm's fluctuated a bit on the way back, I pulled it back in the garage and it appeared to have a miss,I shut it off and restarted it and it raced up but the rpm's fluctuated a bit, on Monday I started it and it wouldn't idle or take any gas and would stall it will restart but very erratic. I replaced the fuel filter and checked the flow and it appears fine with good flow and pressure, I installed a new pcm and it didn't get any better, could it be that dist. went bad or maby a bad tps, I can't find how to check the tps, please help.

Very frustrated

Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Start the engine with it cold and feel the EGR tube from the EGR valve up to the intake. See if the tube heats up at idle or if it stays cold.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
the engine starts but I can't keep it running long enough to get it hot
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
You can't keep it running if you open the throttle a little?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I did get it to run for a couple of minuits by pumping the gas and it did appear that the valve got warm but the tube wasn't getting warm
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago
Has the engine light come on? Have you checked for fault codes?
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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
The car starts but barely runs It appears I have spark at the plugs and coming from the dist. I checked the throttle pasition sensor and closed it has .75 and fully open it has 3.72v does that sound ok
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

The TPS looks ok. It wouldn't cause problems as severe as what you are having either. At the most you might get an idle fluctuation.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
the check engine light does not stay on after start up and I am not getting any fault codes
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

What all did you take apart to replace the distributor? Have you gone back over everything?

 

Have you noticed the exhaust smelling rich or like gas?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
burn your eyes rich, I did go over everything but the vehicle started initally and ran fine with everything still apart
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Loosen the EGR tube at the plenum a few turns on each bolt, take a piece of thin cardboard and slide it in between the tube and plenum, tighten up the bolts with the cardboard in place. Disconnect the battery for a minute and then restart it and see if it runs any different.

 

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I have the egr tube off at this time but I did disconnect the battery and blocked the top of the intake reconnected the battery and restarted and it didn't run any different, I also took out the #2 plug and tested the compression and have about 180lbs so I don't believe I have a timing problem, I also checked the fuel pressure and have 50lbs.
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

What did the plug look like? Was it black, wet?

Did you get gas not long before this problem started?

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Customer reply replied 8 years ago
I did add $10 to a 1/4 tank but with the testing of the fuel pump I had gas in a can and dumped a little in the driveway and threw a match on it and it ignited and splashed a little more and it lit and spread, seemed to burn well and smells good and doesn't appear to have any water, the plugs don't appear wet or black. I removed 2-4-6 and added a little to each cylinder and it didn't appear to make any difference.
Chrysler Mechanic: sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician replied 8 years ago

Have you checked to see what spark looks like with a spark tester? Check the color and length of the spark, and see if it looks erratic.

 

It wouldn't hurt to see what kind of manifold vacuum you are producing. Try and round up a vacuum gauge and see what your vacuum is as close to idle as possible (if it won't idle), then snap the throttle open a few times and watch the gauge. See if the vacuum drops quickly or if it falls slowly.

 

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