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I have an original 5 color silk screen on rice paper Thai

Customer Question
Temple Horses (16" x 33")...
I have an original 5 color silk screen on rice paper Thai Temple Horses (16" x 33") and was advised its value was $30,000 in 80's when purchased. Where can we send for appraisal?
Submitted: 2 years ago.Category: Antiques
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11/17/2015
Antique Expert: AppraiserJM, Antiques and Collectibles Researcher replied 2 years ago
AppraiserJM
AppraiserJM, Antiques and Collectibles Researcher
Category: Antiques
Satisfied Customers: 2,658
Experience: Certified Appraiser, Appraiser's Association of America. USPAP qualified through 2015.
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Hi, my name is*****'m a certified appraiser, and I'd be happy to help.

Do you know the artist's name for this silkscreen?

Where did you purchase it, and for how much?

Who provided the value?

Sincerely,

Jennifer

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Customer reply replied 2 years ago
Hi Jennifer: Attached a photograph and some available information. I bought it from private dealers in Los Angeles in about 1980, they said it was worth about $30,000. We paid 18,500; had also picked up a French Boule Clock and were making some deals... as I recall. Bought other stuff from them too. The dealers were Larry & Jean, 2 guys that had a lot of things traveling Europe and did a lot of business in Hollywood/Beverly Hills back then. I do not know/remember the artist but perhaps I can take it off the wall (up high out of the sun) and even look behind any paper backing if that would help. You may know who once you see it or be able to research? I am also available in Texas at(###) ###-####if that helps. I found add file. (Boy's ain't too smart, I'll try the Grandpa way)
Customer reply replied 2 years ago
Opened it up, turns out it is actually 19-3/4" x 35-3/4" (20" x 36"). The Rice paper is adhered to a linen backing. I am guessing it was done by Monk as I do not see an artists signature. Being a little translucent, I held to a light to check. I would also say it could be a 7 color not a 5 color but it would take your trained eye to make such a determination examining the piece in person so I was staying to the conservative side. I am also not counting the background paper color as a color in my numbers.
Antique Expert: AppraiserJM, Antiques and Collectibles Researcher replied 2 years ago

Thank you.

Just as an FYI, appraised value is based on willing buyer/willing seller. That is, if the seller was willing to take $18,500.00, then the value is $18,500.00. Dealers love to "appraise" items for far more than people paid for them, but that's both dishonest and technically illegal. Still happens every day, sadly.

This is not a silkscreen. It's a rubbing. A piece of rice paper is placed against a temple carving, and colors are rubbed against it. Please search Thai temple horse rubbing, and you'll see what I mean.

Unfortunately, these are of very low value--only a few hundred dollars. This also appears to be 20th, not 19th, century.

Because of this big discrepancy, I understand you will want a second opinion. I"m going to opt out and see if any of the other appraisers wish to weigh in. But I do see these very frequently.

Sincerely,

Jennifer

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Customer reply replied 2 years ago
Thanks for the input.
Antique Expert: Nora, Expert in Fine and Decorative Arts: Renaissance through Contemporary replied 2 years ago
Nora
Nora, Expert in Fine and Decorative Arts: Renaissance through Contemporary
Category: Antiques
Satisfied Customers: 12,998
Experience: Liberal Arts BA College Degree, Post-Graduate Christie's Education in London, 10 Yrs Art World Experience in NYC, President & Founder own Corporation. Member AOA & ISA USPAP Compliant through 2019
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Hello,

I concur with Jen here that this is a 20th century Temple Rubbing, not a screen and that the high sale value is in the range of a few hundred dollars.

~Nora

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Antique Expert: AppraiserJM, Antiques and Collectibles Researcher replied 2 years ago

I sincerely ***** ***** any disappointment.

Sincerely,

Jennifer

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Customer reply replied 2 years ago
Interestingly, I took that advice without the slightest bit of emotion; and checked out literally hundreds and hundreds of those temple rubbings. Wow. I clearly see the similarity and clearly understand why you would suggest what we have looks like that. However, as a trier of fact and not being an art expert, I also noticed a curious fact. Of all those hundreds and hundreds I saw on numerous different web sites, and as inexpensive as I one could buy them for, not so much one matched what we have. Similar subjects with fewer horses and a single color or even a few with a couple colors (and most looked like something you could basically print like posters). If what we have is so cheap or even a few hundred dollar, wouldn't you think they are easily reproduced and sold? Just a logical thought. In my world things are not always as they seem to be; which may be the case here. Not to suggest you folks are incorrect, but I think we continue our examination as the answer has not resolved our question unless of course you can find another of those inexpensive prints (or rubbings) that remotely match what we have?
Antique Expert: AppraiserJM, Antiques and Collectibles Researcher replied 2 years ago

This rubbing was definitely done with a bit more finesse and additional colors. These would never match each other--the people doing them would use different chalks, and arrange the rubbed images in different patterns.

The number of colors and finesse of the rubbing would affect the value slightly, but not by more than $100 or so, simply because they are so easily and commonly "created," or rather hand-reproduced from the temple carvings.

Sincerely,

Jennifer

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Antique Expert: AppraiserJM, Antiques and Collectibles Researcher replied 2 years ago

I should add that the most basic rubbings sell for $10 or $15.

Jennifer

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Antique Expert: LadyTanya65, Certified Appraiser replied 2 years ago
LadyTanya65
LadyTanya65, Certified Appraiser
Category: Antiques
Satisfied Customers: 2,287
Experience: 25+ years experience in Antiques, Certified Appraiser, Speaker, Member of AOA, Asheford Institute Antiques,and I am an Antique Researcher
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Hello, my name is***** am one of the experts here at justanswer. I have seen one as yours that truly was original. The first step to do is to contact the University of Arizona and find out about the carbon dating system. Have them perform the test to determine the age of the piece. From there I can give you an accurate value on the piece. These were done in the 1700s and 1800s and have been known to have survived being handed down through families. At some point they do get out on the market and bought. Without scientific proof of age and type of coloring used it is hard to present something without proof. Like the ladies above have stated they are a few hundred dollars however there are real ones and you just have to have the paper work to prove it first then value from there. The men you bought it from should have had this test done to sell it to you at the price they did. I am hopeful they were true to you and wish you the best. But do contact the University of Arizona as they are the only ones in the states that perform the testing needed that I know of. After that once age is proven we can go from there on value. It is a beautiful piece. And, yes do keep it out of direct sunlight.

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Customer reply replied 2 years ago
Thankfully, Father in law paid for it, but like many things in life, it may be some kind of rubbing not exactly what the guys told me. (Meaning a fake). Truth be told, father in law was a bad guy so it would serve him right!Carbon dating is an idea, they were very specific about the date. Maybe it's not Thai Temple for that matter, but part of the fun is the investigation. Thank you for your kindness.
Antique Expert: LadyTanya65, Certified Appraiser replied 2 years ago

This is true researching items as I do with anceint jade is fascinating and fun. My father collected these early rubbings and I know a lot abouf them I will review more on yours to determine cerfain signs for what else ro look for. It is so hard to trust people at times but there should have been testing and research given at time of sell to clearly let the buyer k.ow what he had bought. i will post more over the next day or so for your own knowledge.

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LadyTanya65
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