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Jo C.
Jo C., Barrister
Category: UK Traffic Law
Satisfied Customers: 69265
Experience:  Over 5 years in practice.
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CAN I ASK a question plz?

Customer Question

hi CAN I ASK a question plz?
Submitted: 13 days ago.
Category: UK Traffic Law
Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

How can I help with this ?

Customer: replied 13 days ago.
Partner had a minor incident on car park on 26.9.2016 at 15:45, when reversing slowly out of a parking space with 8 year old daughter at gp surgery car park. Did not feel any collision, next thing, woman in car behind hanging on horn, then screaming, 'you hit me! I'm going to call the police. My daughter, distressed due to woman screaming, and he moves car back into space whilst woman screaming at him outside. He asked through window, 'Did I hit you?' Woman screaming, then parks car behind him blocking him in to parking space. She walks away briefly, then comes back to her car and drives away. No details exchange of details, as woman screaming and daughter and him scared so remained in car. Woman did not approach with her details either.Partner rings into 101 police at 17:00 same day to report incident and inability to exchange of details. Police say they cannot issue Ref: number for the call because there is no REG. number for woman, however partner gives description of car and woman but explain that the call has been recorded for future reference. Partner has evidence of this call via mobile phone bill and screen shots of call log. Partner does not inform insurance company as there is no damage to his vehicle.Next thing, 8.10.2016, partner gets NIP, dated 7.10.2016, for Section 3 RTA 1988, due care, fail to stop after RTA and fail to report RTA S. 170 (4) RTA88, sating incorrect date, 29.10.2016 and time 'approx' 13:35. seeks lega advice, do not fill in as time and date way off and error.Next thing, 12.10.2016, receives another notice from police with heading changed from NIP, to 'requirement to supply name and address of driver, citing same alleged offence. Notice is dated 11.10.2016, post marked 11.10.2016, and includes hand written compliments slip from police saying please disregard previous NIP, as admin error, please respond to this instead. Is this new doc. still time barred, however, as it was recieved +15 past date of incident? Also, date has been indeed amended to 26.10.2016, but the time still states, 'approx. 13:35'. However, actual time of incident was 15:45.Partner potentially has CCTV evidence that at 13:35 his car is parked at work between 12:00 - 15:00. Today I rang the issuing police dept. to ask how to fill in the form as there is no option for, 'noone was driving the car at the time you sya, it was parked', and they advised that in that case to NOT fill in this second notice but to send it back with an accompanying letter stating that no-one was driving the car at 13:35 because it was parked, and here's the CCTV screen shots of the work car park as evidence. Also police advised to state in letter that there was an ACTUAL alleged incident, but it was at 15:45 same day, not 13:35, and that at indeed at 17:00 partner did actually ring and inform police, and to also submit copy mobile phone bill / log as evidence of him reporting to police, with the letter response.The GP surgery confirms they do have potential CCTV coverage of that car park on that day, which may prove it was the woman who drove off, not partner, but GPs refuse to let partner see it, saying its theirs and confidential to them. Can the police instruct GPs to have sight of this footage as part of their investigation?Also, no police officer attended at actual incident, the first notice was via the NIP, so police evidence for the alleged incident must likely to be, simply word of the woman making a complaint to police. Is this fair?Please can you advise how best to proceed and explain why the police first issue a 'NIP', then suddenly change it to a 'requirement to supply etc...' (I suspect they have done it because they realised they were very close to the amended NIP being considered time-barred...?)
Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

So, in short, there was an allegation of an accident and you didn't exchange details or report to a police station?

Customer: replied 13 days ago.
Hi, thanks for reply. Not exactly. Yes, there was an alleged incident and yes, they did not exchange details but he DID ring the incident to the police on 101 (Wales) about an hour later, as I explained...
Customer: replied 13 days ago.
he has proof that he made that call to the police, also the police record all calls.
Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

Yes, but did he go to a police station and report the incident and fill out the required forms?

Customer: replied 13 days ago.
Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

Ok. Are you asking if he had a defence?

Customer: replied 13 days ago.
I'm asking what I'm asking in the original question. How should he proceed please? Are the NIPs and other notice time-barred? Does the police's failure to get the right time of the incident void their notices? Should he provide evidence of the phone calls? CCTV evidence of the car being parked at the incorrect time they advise?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

No, they are not time barred. they don't need a NIP to prosecute for failing to stop and report.

The notices are not invalid for that reason.

It doesn't really matter all that much whether he provides evidence of the phone calls or the CCTV.

Plain fact is, he didn't report. There is no way around it.

Customer: replied 13 days ago.
Another solicitor said that his phone call to the police is a report. Plus he does not believe that he had any collision.
Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

The law is quite clear. You have to either exchange details at scene or report to a police station. He did not.

The only defence that remains is the factual challenge to whether there was an accident or not. The law doesn't require a driver to know of an accident. It is enough that he should have known.

However, there is a defence if the court doubt as a question of fact that an accident took place.

Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

The only problem is that a motivation to lie can be hard to establish in this type of circumstance.

However, I have won one of these once and the general defence raised isnt that there was no collision.

Customer: replied 13 days ago.
why, when he rang the police, did they not advise him to actually go to a police station?
Also, sorry I don't understand what your last paragraph means
Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

I can't really comment on that. You would need to ask the 101 operators. They are not even police officers. They are just civilian support staff.

Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

Ultimately the police aren't a source of legal advice though.

Customer: replied 13 days ago.
39;the only problem is that a motivation to lie can be hard to establish in this type of circumstance.' motivation to lie by whom?However, I have won one of these once and the general defence raised isnt that there was no collision. the general defence raised isn't that there was no colosion-so what WAS the general defence, if it wasn't that there was no collision..? (Too many double negatives there for me :D
Customer: replied 13 days ago.
Isn't it somewhat mitigating that he rang the police?
Customer: replied 13 days ago.
whats the best way tp proceed and answer this NIP / other notice?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

1 The person who alleges the collision. People do lie sometimes but not usually random third parties with no particular reason to lie.

2 Not sure how to express this differently. I have won one of these cases on this defence once. Generally speaking this is not the defence raised.

Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

I'm happy to continue with this but please rate my answer.

Customer: replied 13 days ago.
I still dont feel you have given me any practical advice that I can implement sorry
Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.

Ok. Good luck.

Expert:  Jo C. replied 13 days ago.


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