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Jo C.
Jo C., Barrister
Category: UK Traffic Law
Satisfied Customers: 69359
Experience:  Over 5 years in practice.
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I was given a ticket in August upside down valid ticket. We

Customer Question

Hello,
I was given a ticket in August for an upside down valid ticket.
We are still being sent letters even though aretractable have messed up our ability to appeal.
Submitted: 10 months ago.
Category: UK Traffic Law
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

Who is the issuer of the fine?

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Armtrac security
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
I've just tagged added a picture of the letter we received
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

Are you prepared to risk being sued?

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
as far as we are concerned, we have not done anything wrong
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
This is an email that I sent to the ias explaing the situation.Hello,I've been having issues with our appeal process, having just spoken to a lady from the IPC she has requested I email with further details.PCN: 921812Parking firm: Armtrac securityHaving initially appealed to Armtrac, they lost our letter and decided to send out a letter of 'notice to keeper'. Upon Speaking on the phone Armtrac informed me the letter had been lost and I should to resubmit an appeal this time via E-mail. Subsequently, the Armtrac appeal was not accepted and I was given details about appealing via www.theias.org. Having no luck at being able to submit an appeal (the system wouldn’t recognise my details) I straight away contacted Armtrac again via email. This time I was advised it would not be ready to submit until 5 pm that day. Upon retrying to submit appeal with www.theias.org the same thing happened. By this time Armtrac were not answering the phone to which I only concluded they had gone home. Roughly one week passed with the details still being unrecognized on the theias.org website I once again telephoned Armtrac. I was once again told the same thing and asked to wait until 5pm with still no joy. Having sought advice from someone who has legal experience regarding parking issues I was advised to phone again and record the conversation. This time I was told that there had been an oversight on Armtac’s part that the AIS website would not work.Therefore today is the first time I've been able to access any details within the theias.org website. However now I can not update any details as it is a 'none standard appeal'. According to theias.org website I've got 21 days after the initial rejection from armtrac was sent, this has not been possible as there has been an admitted mistake from armtrac.In summary: there has been no breach of the terms and conditions of the car park. I was required to place my ticket on the windscreen and this was done. Furthermore, I consider it a misleading commercial practice to state recourse must be had to the Armtrac appeals system which, upon multiple attempts, does not work and in the meantime issue demands for payment whilst the ticket is in dispute. This is contrary to the explicit wording of  OFT debt collection guidelines.
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

Well, it depends.

Did you notice whether the signs at the location prohibited parking without 'display' or parking without having a ticket?

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Some pictures
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

Ok. So did you notice what the signs said?

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Can you see this picture
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

Got it this time.

That does clearly say display. In fairness, that is what the law would probably imply anyway as it would be perverse if it were adequate to just buy a ticket and not display it.

the chances are that they probably wouldn't sue you anyway but they could. Nobody can offer any guarantees. However, the reality is that it is not cost effective to sue for one fine.

The appeals point is a non issue. Their appeals structure has no legal authority. There is only one forum that decides whether a fine of this nature must be paid and that is the small claims court.

The issue for that court would be whether or not the money is due. You are in breach as it was not displayed.

You could argue that no loss has been caused because you did have a ticket and that might well be persuasive in the circumstances.

Can I clarify anything for you?

Jo

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
What do you mean by sued?As you can see here. The picture that an armtrac employee took when giving the ticket clearly states a serial number which matches that of the ticket in the picture with the pcn.
In my defence, there was a ticket displayed however upside down
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

I'm not sure how to express it differently.

Taken to the small claims court - sued.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
would you recommend I do then?
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Please look at other pictures
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

I have opened all of the pictures and they don't change the position I set down above. That is not a displayed ticket.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
After what has happened last year with the high Court judgment,  do I have any chance or am I fighting a pointless battle.I think what I'm trying to ascertain is, is it worth the gamble to let them take me to a small claims court.And roughly, what might be the financial penalty be if I loose.100's or 1000's?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

The high court judgment has no impact here. All that considered was the question of whether or not a fine of £80 was excessive for the transgression. That is not the issue here.

I think it probably is worth the gamble. The odds are heavily in your favour. you have reduced them by appealing rather than ignoring them but it is still a fairly good gamble.

If you lose they would only get the sum of the fine plus about £35 in costs and £50 in fixed solicitors costs.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
Ok so worst case scenario, I loose £185What should I do now then?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

If you are happy to run the risk then just ignore them unless you get a court summons.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
what about the debt recovery agents?Do I need to tell them I wish them to take me to a court?
Customer: replied 10 months ago.
If it did go to court what should be my best line of defence
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

You can do that. I would just ignore debt collection agents. They have no authority at all.

Customer: replied 10 months ago.
If it did go to court what should be my best line of defence?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 10 months ago.

The issue for that court would be whether or not the money is due. You are in breach as it was not displayed.

You could argue that no loss has been caused because you did have a ticket and that might well be persuasive in the circumstances.

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