How JustAnswer Works:

  • Ask an Expert
    Experts are full of valuable knowledge and are ready to help with any question. Credentials confirmed by a Fortune 500 verification firm.
  • Get a Professional Answer
    Via email, text message, or notification as you wait on our site.
    Ask follow up questions if you need to.
  • 100% Satisfaction Guarantee
    Rate the answer you receive.

Ask Sam Your Own Question

Sam
Sam, Accountant
Category: UK Tax
Satisfied Customers: 12933
Experience:  26 HMRC expertise, PAYE, Self Assessment ,Residency, Capital Gains, CIS ask for Sam Tax
16196420
Type Your UK Tax Question Here...
Sam is online now
A new question is answered every 9 seconds

Hi Sam, HMRC has come back. Employer is saying they never

Resolved Question:

Hi Sam,

HMRC has come back.

Employer is saying they never received P45 - as employer also did not have a completed P46 in their possession, HMRC saying Employer correct to operating code BR in accordance with PAYE regulations.

I thought only PAYE Regulations allowed are P45 and P46 - was not aware of a third that allows use of BR.

HMRC also state that "We have no record of receiving in year notification from GSK either in the form of a P45 Part 3 or P46 that your employment commenced with them in 2009-10 so your record was not updated and no code was issued to them, by us, for 2009-10".

HMRC conclude that Employer Error does not apply.

HMRC say it can be elevated to Adjudicator - but what mechanism can we use to get this in from of a Judge and Tribunal ?

Thanks.
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: UK Tax
Expert:  Sam replied 1 year ago.

Hi

 

Thanks for your follow up, although I think you must have registered again as I cannot see any earlier posts from you, to refresh my memory of your original question.

 

However if the employer failed to give you a P46 to complete then this is employer error, as its their duty to take correct actions at the start of your employment, so the failure to complete one, if it lays with them, then makes any unpaid tax also their responsibility.

 

If, however they gave you a P46, that you then failed to return, then this then maybe your responsibility, but perhaps you can expand for me, so I am sure I am offering the appropriate advise regarding elevation to the Adjudicator.

 

Thanks


Sam

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Hi,


Yes, I had to register again.


 


Wife handed in P45 to GSK her former employer and kept copies so did not even think of P46. GSK at no point chased for P45 or requested P46 so wife thought nothing more.


 


GSK have pointed out there was a link if original offer letter (P46 link) to download a P46 to hand in if one did not have P45 - but again, wife did not think of it as she handed in P45.


 


HMRC has confirmed in writing that GSK did not inform them of my wife's employment - either through P45 or P46 - until May of next year when they received the Annual End of Year P14.


 


I know Adjudicator is one route, but how do we get this into a tribunal where judge will hear evidence on P45 submission - at the moment it appears that GSK are saying simply they did not receive P45 and my wife has no chance to put her side.


 


 


 


 

Expert:  Sam replied 1 year ago.

Hi

 

 

Thanks for your response

 

As this time the Adjudicator route is what HMRC offer up for PAYE/Self Assessment cases. However I will advise this is managed by HMRC staff on secondment, so its to the letter of the law (which in this case could go either way as its one persons word against another)

 

But I would write back and state you wish the case to go to tribunal so that your wife case can be heard, and your wife gets the chance to have her say.

 

However if my memory serves me right (as this case falls within the statutory rules under ESC (Extra Statutory Concession) A19), you may find the adjudicator is the only route, so please do bear this in mind.

If your wife can remember to whom she gave her P45 - then this would also be worth mentioning in the response letter to HMRC.

 

If you have any follow up questions, please do ask, I am about to pop out to meet with clients, but hope to be back no later than 4pm.

 

Thanks

 

Sam

 

 

 

 

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Hi again,


 


1) Surely the GSK case is weak bearing in mind my wife (a Doctor) made a note of the Parts 2 & 3 with date handed in, to whom etc. after she handed them in ?


 


Point is: why keep a copy with notes on and then not actually hand them in. What would she gain from that ?


 


2) Second Point: is GSK not wide open in failing to provide P46 information - or any new employee information i.e. failing to meet its PAYE obligations - as HMRC only knew that my wife started employment with them (start date 02.11.09) when they got a P14 in May 2010 ?


 


Thanks.

Expert:  Sam replied 1 year ago.
Hi

Im back earlier than expected !

Thanks for your further response

1) A note certainly supports the fact that the P45 was handed in, but is not conclusive evidence in itself.

2) You cannot argue HMRC failing (which I should have advised you on this before) as HMRC do not use the end of year Employer Return submissions (with copies of the P60s) to review every taxpayers record, its up to the taxpayer first and foremost to make sure their affairs were in order, and in the instance when an employment had begun and its from this that the mistake was made, its a case of what happened and where does that blame lie.
Clearly, based on what you have advised, its employer error, as were it not for the fact that the employer did not use the P45 given to them, or in the absence of said P45, ensured your wife completed form P46, then this would not have happened.
But the fact that HMRC did not know of your wifes employment until that P14 was sent in,l further supports employer error, as HMRC did not receive a P46 either ! So its clear that the employer is at fault.

The fact that HMRC did not have the ability to address this at year end, is just furthered the problem, rather than being the primary cause.

Thanks

Sam









Customer: replied 1 year ago.

Hi Sam,


Just a final question to get this straight in my head.


 


The only procedures I am aware of are the P45 and P46 when an employee starts - either needs to go to HMRC - here GSK failed provably.


 


So, if GSK failed to supply P45 and follow P46 procedure (confirmed by HMRC), then there is no other procedure in existence that they can rely on to argue that they operated PAYE correctly in selecting Tax Code BR which then led to all the problems ?


 


Is that a correct statement ?


 


Thanks.

Expert:  Sam replied 1 year ago.

HI

 

Yes your thought process regarding the fact that the P45 and P46 when an employee starts - either needs to go to HMRC - here GSK failed provably.

 

And yes as GSK failed to alert HMRC to the fact your wife had started work with them, then HMRC could NOT have rectified this situation sooner, as although HMRC receive employer end of year returns along with copies of P60s for each employee, and those that have either overpaid or overpaid tax ARE listed on a worklist, and should be reviewed - HMRC were not even aware that your wife worked for this employer, until such time this was rectified/reviewed.

 

Thanks


Sam

Sam, Accountant
Category: UK Tax
Satisfied Customers: 12933
Experience: 26 HMRC expertise, PAYE, Self Assessment ,Residency, Capital Gains, CIS ask for Sam Tax
Sam and other UK Tax Specialists are ready to help you

JustAnswer in the News:

 
 
 
Ask-a-doc Web sites: If you've got a quick question, you can try to get an answer from sites that say they have various specialists on hand to give quick answers... Justanswer.com.
JustAnswer.com...has seen a spike since October in legal questions from readers about layoffs, unemployment and severance.
Web sites like justanswer.com/legal
...leave nothing to chance.
Traffic on JustAnswer rose 14 percent...and had nearly 400,000 page views in 30 days...inquiries related to stress, high blood pressure, drinking and heart pain jumped 33 percent.
Tory Johnson, GMA Workplace Contributor, discusses work-from-home jobs, such as JustAnswer in which verified Experts answer people’s questions.
I will tell you that...the things you have to go through to be an Expert are quite rigorous.
 
 
 

What Customers are Saying:

 
 
 
  • I really was impressed with the prompt response. Your expert was not only a tax expert, but a people expert!!! Her genuine and caring attitude came across in her response... T.G.W Matteson, IL
< Last | Next >
  • I really was impressed with the prompt response. Your expert was not only a tax expert, but a people expert!!! Her genuine and caring attitude came across in her response... T.G.W Matteson, IL
  • I WON!!! I just wanted you to know that your original answer gave me the courage and confidence to go into yesterday's audit ready to fight. Bonnie Chesnee, SC
  • Great service. Answered my complex tax question in detail and provided a lot of additional useful information for my specific situation. John Minneapolis, MN
  • Excellent information, very quick reply. The experts really take the time to address your questions, it is well worth the fee, for the peace of mind they can provide you with. Orville Hesperia, California
  • Wonderful service, prompt, efficient, and accurate. Couldn't have asked for more. I cannot thank you enough for your help. Mary C. Freshfield, Liverpool, UK
  • This expert is wonderful. They truly know what they are talking about, and they actually care about you. They really helped put my nerves at ease. Thank you so much!!!! Alex Los Angeles, CA
  • Thank you for all your help. It is nice to know that this service is here for people like myself, who need answers fast and are not sure who to consult. GP Hesperia, CA
 
 
 

Meet The Experts:

 
 
 
  • Andrew Baker(baktax)

    Personal Tax Adviser

    Satisfied Customers:

    756
    35+ years experience in income tax, CGT, non-residence
< Last | Next >
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/baktax/2009-7-15_202414_Frame.jpg Andrew Baker(baktax)'s Avatar

    Andrew Baker(baktax)

    Personal Tax Adviser

    Satisfied Customers:

    756
    35+ years experience in income tax, CGT, non-residence
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/teap007/2009-01-10_145815_bill_justanswer_for_profile.jpg TEAP007's Avatar

    TEAP007

    Tax Preparer

    Satisfied Customers:

    754
    Fully Trained Inspector of Taxes / District Inspector/ Team Leader/ Offshore Consultant/ 41 years
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/BE/berduchwal/2011-6-7_84817_pict0854.64x64.jpg berduchwal's Avatar

    berduchwal

    Accountant

    Satisfied Customers:

    669
    Qualified accountant and bookkeeper running my own practice since 2008.
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/JO/Josh2010/2012-4-29_19490_GettyImages80121770B.64x64.jpg Joshua's Avatar

    Joshua

    Lawyer

    Satisfied Customers:

    61
    LL.B (Hons), Higher Prof. Dip. Law & Practice
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/RO/Ronaann/2012-3-19_23343_SSL22629.64x64.JPG Mrs-Tax's Avatar

    Mrs-Tax

    Tax Adviser

    Satisfied Customers:

    59
    Law Degree, 19 years in UK Tax.
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/TG/TGraham12/2012-7-17_81212_bigstockBusinessHandshake508163.64x64.jpg Thomas's Avatar

    Thomas

    Solicitor

    Satisfied Customers:

    48
    Exposure to general tax issues
  • http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/struppiaml/2009-10-9_95150_anthony_business_002.jpg AnthonyL's Avatar

    AnthonyL

    Tax Adviser

    Satisfied Customers:

    19
    ATT, ATII, 12 years tax experience
 
 
 
Chat Now With An UK Tax Professional
Sam
Sam
Tax Consultant
6328 Satisfied Customers
26 HMRC expertise, PAYE, Self Assessment ,Residency, Capital Gains, CIS ask for Sam Tax