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Jo C.
Jo C., Barrister
Category: UK Law
Satisfied Customers: 70007
Experience:  Over 5 years in practice.
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I recieved a NIP but on the day in question i dont know if

Customer Question

hi i recieved a NIP but on the day in question i dont know if it was me or my wife driving. the photo given to me is taken from the rear of my car and i have blacked out windows. Also when entering the road there are no speed limit signs at all. how will this work out?
Philip Charlton
Submitted: 11 months ago.
Category: UK Law
Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

Are you asking if you have a defence?

Customer: replied 11 months ago.
as i just dont know which of us was driving at that time.
Customer: replied 11 months ago.
this is the letter i sent to them..
Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

What steps have you taken to identify the driver?

have you sent that letter already? If not, please dont

Customer: replied 11 months ago.
i have asked my wife and she cant remember either as this is going back to March18th. The letter is getting sent tomorrow. I just would like to know what actions they will take if we cant remember who was driving and they cant prove who was as no photo from the front of the car.
Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

They will send you a reminder NIP and if you don't disclose at that stage they will summons you for failing to identify.

Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

You misunderstand the law I'm afraid.

The onus is upon you to identify the driver by means of investigation. S172 imposes a duty upon the person to take all reasonable steps to identify the driver. I'm afraid that asking your wife is not sufficient.

Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

The problem with this is that people are always claiming that their cars are in multiple use and they can't remember who was driving.

The truth is that if the allegation being investigated were that a person driving this car was hanging around outside schools trying to abduct primary school children then the registered keeper would find out who he was so fast the world would spin. Magistrates are generally aware of that.

Bearing in mind that NIPs have to be served within 14 days and this is a personal car it becomes difficult to argue that you cannot identify, with reasonable diligence, the driver.

Of course nobody knows off hand who was driving but when diaries are checked and routes are retraced it is usually possible.

Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

People who run haulage companies are in a different position but personal vehicles are caught I'm afraid.

If you are adamant that having done all of this you cannot say then you will have to respond naming the possible candidates but you may well end up being summonsed for failing to identify. You need to be aware of that. You may win in court but you need to be aware of the risk.

Can I clarify anything for you?

Jo

Customer: replied 11 months ago.
thank you for your advice but we just dont know which was driving. without a frontal photo we cant say who it was. this brings it down to them to prove who was driving doesnt it ??
Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

No. The onus is upon you.

S172 reverses the burden of proof.

On these facts you will be convicted I'm afraid.

Customer: replied 11 months ago.
what about the fact that there are no road signs indicating the speed limit when entering the road and not one speed camera sign anywhere.
Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

That has no relevance to the obligation to name the driver.

There is no obligation to advertise speed cameras at any time.

Customer: replied 11 months ago.
Rules and regulations for speed camerasIn 2001 the law was changed so that speed cameras had to be painted yellow to ensure visibility. Many other rules were also brought in regarding speed cameras.The regulations decree that:speed camera housings must be coloured yellow
camera housings cannot be obscured, e.g. by trees, bushes or signs
cameras must be visible from 60m away in 40mph or less zones and 100m for all other speed limit zones
signs must only be placed in areas where camera housings are located or where mobile cameras are in operation
in order to make them visible, mobile speed camera operators must wearing fluorescent clothing, and their vehicles should be marked with reflective strips
camera sites are to be reviewed at least every six months in order to ensure that cameras are adequately visible and signed.
Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

There is no obligation to advertise speed cameras at any time.

The ACPO guidelines are not law.

They are perfectly free to hide them behind overgrown trees if they wish.

Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

In any event, it is irrelevant to S172 and failing to identify.

Customer: replied 11 months ago.
the thing is i am not failing to identify its just that i have asked my wife and both of us use the car i never saw a camera van and neither has she. we simply dont know which of us was driving it. sorry for been a pest.
Expert:  Jo C. replied 11 months ago.

I'm really sorry and I wish I could give you a different answer but I'm not going to be able to tell you that this is complying with S172.