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Jo C.
Jo C., Barrister
Category: UK Law
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Experience:  Over 5 years in practice.
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hi i been arrested on section 18 gbh 2 counts, there was a

Customer Question

hi i been arrested on section 18 gbh 2 counts, there was a fight in a club with a gang of people, a boy claims i punched and kicked him and i pushed his girfreind over who came running towards me from the side trying to hit me, boy has dislocated shoulder and no other injurys and girl had 8 staples in back of her head. they have 2 whitness's saying i did this, its on camera and you cant even see me on the cctv doing nothing. i honestly didnt do nothing except push a person away who came running at me. what do you think will happen, on bail untill 28 october? thanks chris
Submitted: 4 years ago.
Category: UK Law
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

 

If the evidence is as strong as they say then you will be charged with something.

 

Personally I don't that does amount to a S18 and I would charge it as a S20. I think it might be the staples in her head though. It depends what they are saying caused that. If it was a weapon then that may be an 18.

 

If you are convicted of this then I'm afraid you can expect to go to prison for some years.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
no they saying someone pushed her and she hit her head on a pillar, i pushed someone away from me as some came at me from the side? what mean evidence strong as they say? would pushing someone away be self defence and could it be abh?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

 

Pushing somebody may be self defence. It depends what was happening. Also, if I were prosecuting this, I would ask you whether you really needed to push her so hard that she hit her head that badly. REmember this has to be reasonable force.

 

This isn't an ABH though. The injuries are too great for that. Its probably a S20.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
i was breaking a fight up and pushed her away from me as she came running from side or behind i didnt know if it was a female or male i just tried to get the person away from me, i didnt punch out, statement says i pushed her away, i didnt intend for the person to injure themselves i was trying to stop them from hitting me? what evidence is needed?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

 

But it must have been quite hard if she struck her head that badly. Remember the Crown only have to show you used more force than was strictly reasonable.

 

Also, there's no way the jury will accept for a second that you didn't know whether the person was male or female. That said, you are still entitled to use reasonable force to stop an assault whether she was male or female.

 

why did you need to push her at all though? I think the problem that you have potentially is that she hadn't even assaulted you yet so you are really running pre-emptive strike rather than self defence.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

who ever i pushed was trying to hit me i turned my body and pushed with the palm of my hand, if its the female i pushed she fell back into a pillar? how did i use more force i was trying to get the person away so i pushed her?

Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.
How do you know that? You said earlier she was running towards you?
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
ye she came running towards me trying to hit me so what i thought would be self defence i pushed the person away?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

Its not that simple. You will be asked in detail.

 

She cannot have come running towards you trying to hit you. Either she was running towards you from a distance in which case she couldn't strike you or she was close up trying to hit you and we know that can't be right because you said earlier that you didn't know whether she was male or female so she couldn't have been that close.

 

You need to be clear about your account because that will be torn apart when you give evidence.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
i was breaking the fight up and she came towards me side on and tryed hitting out at me me i was trying to break a fight up turned and pushed the person away ?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

OK. But thats not what you said earlier. You'll find it if you look back.

 

You said that she was running towards you when you pushed her and that you did not know whether she was male or female.

 

 

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

it was a big gang fighting which i noticed my mates there and i walked over trying to break it up there was alot of pushing and shoving who ever came towards me i pushed them away as they came side on trying to hit me?

Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.
But again your story is changing. All thats fine with me. But its going to be a problem for you if you do it in the witness box.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
thats what accually happend and thats what i said in my interview with police?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

OK. So why did you say something else earlier?

 

To some extent that doesn't really matter as long as you don't do it during the course of these proceedings.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

just in detail really and because they claiming that it was me who pushed the women was trying to anwser your question, but thats what actually happend and the cctv doesnt show me doing nothing bad on it at al i admit i push someone but who i dont know but that was only because what i said some one came side on towards me trying to hit me, what you think cps will do? will it go to crown or mag? everything in interview i no commented and wrote a statement of what accually happend, thats all i had to say thanks

Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

We are back where we started though, arent' we? Either she came towards you or she was close enough to try to hit you. At the moment, I do think you will be charged because this is so easy to break down.

 

It will go to the Crown Court. Its indictable only.

 

You have to take into account that I havent' had full sight of the case, but I think you will be charged and you are at risk of conviction. She probably did make a pest of herself but I don't think pushing somebody so hard that they sustain those injuries is something that CPS would accept. Also, there really doesn't seem much clarity in your account over what happened and why you need to push her.

 

I can see why a no comment was the advice. I think that would have been my advice too. But you will have to give evidence sometime and i do think there are going to be problems unless you decide exactly what happened.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

who ever tried hitting me came from the side so i dont acually kno if the person was rite next to me or came from a distance as i was trying to break a fight up, who ever i pushed was because someone tried hitting me. if it was the women i pushed, what if the pillar was rite behind her and i pushed her but she was drunk or slipped i did not intend to injure the women if it was her i pushed. i just tried getting the person who tried assaulting me away from me?

Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

But thats not what you said earlier.

 

Also, it doesnt' really matter whether you intended to push her into the pillar. You must have pushed her incredibly hard to cause that degree of impact and thats the issue. Was that really reasonable? Im afraid I think CPS will think that it was not.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
obviously having staples is not reasonable but what if it wasnt her i pushed? well section 18 is intent so course it matters wether you intended something or not, my statements states i pushed someone who tried hitting me from the side unknowing if that person was male or female so it could be a total different person i pushed cctv doesnt show me pushing the female over either.
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

 

 

This will be charged as a S20 and it won't matter what you intended. In any event, they could bring this under the force of the push and maintain a S18. If you push somebody that hard you intend they sustain injury although I have to say that I wouldnt' charge this as any more than a 20.

 

If you've said in your statement that you dont know whether the person you pushed was male or female then you've got problems I'm afraid. The jury won't accept that.

 

The CCTV may not show that. It depends what else they've got and what the two witnesses say.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
all they got is 2 whitness statements and a description of me i done a video parade and waiting to hear from that. if charged with section 20 is there away to get it down to abh by my solicitor ?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

No, S20 is a GBH, S24 is an ABH. The issue will be the extent of the injuries.

 

2 statements is damning. 1 statement is bad. 2 is worse.


I'm surprised they bothered with a parade. You accept that you were there and that you were the person who pushed.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
but dont they do bargin pleas? what if the statements are from freinds? my statement didnt say i pushed the women tho i said i pushed someoen in self defence as they tried hitting me?as i av not been charged only arrested in suspition on gbh cant it get dropped to abh?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

That should have read S47 is an ABH. This isn't an ABH though. The woman has STAPLES in her HEAD !!!!

 

Not on injuries. Its either an ABH or a GBH. They can't charge down to get a conviction. the level of injury isn't the area of weakness.

 

This won't be dropped to an ABH. I think you'll be lucky to get a S20 rather than an 18 out of it.

 

If you've said you pushed somebody, who else but you do you think the jury will think pushed the person with injury?

 

Your friends will be discredited on the basis of bias. If there are independent witnesses and two of them, they will be believed. Of course, it depends what they say.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
so theres no way to get this to abh, as if it was the women i pushed was self defence? why you think they done a video parade?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

I'm surprised they bothered with that. It might be just an abundance of caution really. Or there might be identity issues that we don't know about.

 

It won't be dropped to an ABH. You cannot get a matter dropped to an ABH because you acted in self defence. Self defence is defence. ABH/GBH/S18 refers to the level of injury.

 

Either way, don't say anything else to them now. Its probably going to be one of these cases where the evidence is such a dog's dinner that there are other escape routes than your account being a reasonable one.

 

But I do think the road to conviction for you lies in talking too much about this. Its quite a common problem really. Most people are convicted on the basis of what they say rather than what they don't.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
could the cps charge with abh tho?when you say either way dont say anythingelse, probably going to be on of these wehre evidence is a doghs dinner that there are other escpae routes than your accountg being a resonable one? what dos that mean?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

No, this is not an ABH. I don't know where thats come from. You are lucky that she didn't die. She hit her head so hard that she has STAPLES in it. Ive just done a preliminary hearing on an almost identical case where the victim did die and the defendant was charged with murder. You will be lucky if you escape with a S20.

I didn't understand the rest??

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
what yo wrote previously what does it mean? do you think i be charged with 18?
Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.

I would charge this as a S20. I think its easier and cleaner to do that. There may be others who would charge this as an S18. But then you would have a plea bargaining point. In any event, from what you say, plea bargaining isn't appropriate because you have a defence.

 

If I were running this case, I would fight it and wait to see what their evidence is like. I do think the fact that they need to do ID parades suggest that they are expecting some identification issues. Also, you may not be picked out. Its harder than you think.

 

Anyway, the witnesses might not come or if they do they might not give evidence that the prosecution want. You'd be amazed at how many do that.

 

We know the CCTV is helpful. To be fair, an open handed push could be worse even though it was quite hard. Really the only problem that you have is that you will, at the moment, damage yourself when you give evidence. But it might never get that far. It might collapse at half time. If this is a pub fight then probably everybody was drunk and couldn't see everything.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

my solicitor said not to worry untill your charged then he do the work. but i honestly only pushed someone and bit gutted now really if its the women i pushedUndecided. yes it was in a nightclub and bout 10people but me and my 3 mates have been questiond so far. i could not see my self on cctv at all and the boy dislocated his shoulder says he was kicked and punched by a few boys but dont have no injurys than shoulder.thanks

Expert:  Jo C. replied 4 years ago.
OK. Don't say anything else now. Lets just sit quietly and see what they can prove. Its not very likely that you will be picked out of the ID parade.

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