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Gallagher99
Gallagher99, FORD SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Category: UK Ford
Satisfied Customers: 1939
Experience:  SVQ LEVEL 3, QAULIFIED FORD SENIOR TECHNICIAN , ATA REGISTERD ,12 YEARS EXPERIENCE
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ford mondeo titanium 07 tdci wont start but is turning over.

Customer Question

ford mondeo titanium 07 tdci won't start but is turning over. glow plug light is flashing. any ideas v.much appreciated.

thanks,
john.
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: UK Ford
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there , good evening to you

Ok the first thing that MUST be done is to have a diagnostic fault code check done
This fault code check Is imperative to correctly diagnosing this issue
Nearly all garages big and small have the equipment to carry this check out

Ok common faults on the 2.0/2.2 TDCI engines regarding non start ( crank no fire )
Are worn injectors causing a knock limit attained fault code
The injectors are common for failing or reaching there limits
Loose Multiplugs and chaffed wiring are also suspect

Electronic turbos are also pretty common but the affected vehicles start eventually
All faults listed are all fault code dependant

The engine management system on these vehicles is very technical and complex. And without a fault code you ate working blind

I would get the fault code check done first (note the code/s logged ) then delete the codes and see which code/s reappear this way you know the code is a fresh hard fault code as codes can be left from previous repairs causing Incorrect diagnosis and costing the customer money


If you need anymore help or advice on this issue please let me know
If you are completley satisfied with my answer /advice PLEASE CLICK ACCEPT
Kind regards XXXXX XXXXX and have a nice evening


Brian


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
the aa recovery tech says the code indicates the fuel pressure sensor. what are your thoughts on this?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Relist: Answer came too late.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there sorry had broadband issues

Ok do you know the exact fault code eg p0251 fuel metering valve
Or p0191 -fuel rail pressure sensor circuit

Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
fuel pressure sensor (on the common rail?).

the car is in the garage now and a post mortem will be carried out tomorrow so it would be good to be primed.

thanks,
john.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there John sorry for the delay there

Ok if it is a fuel rail pressure sensor code. The code set is normally p0191

The fuel rail pressure sensors are very rarely the cause of the fault more likely a connection/wiring issue at the multiplug

The fuel rail sensor is screwed into the end of the fuel rail and cannot be replaced seperatley

Ok there is 3wires going to the fuel rail pressure sensor
1 , a 5 volt reference feed
2. , a ground
3 , a signal out wire to the PCM. (. 0.5 -4.5 volts )
The raw voltage reading tells the PCM what the fuel rail pressure is

Things I have came across with the fuel rail sensor is loose pins at the multiplug due to the wiring being too tight
Pin grip is another fault I have seen where the multiplug pin wasn't tight enough telling the PCM that there is an open circuit concern
When the PCM sees an open circuit concern on the signal wire the fuel rail pressure defaults to 2000 bar and will not allow the vehicle to start


Another fault I have seem a few times is a reappearing fault code of p2288 fuel rail pressure too high

What happens with this concern again a crank no fire Is the fuel pressure becomes too high in the rail
Basically these vehicles will only start when the target fuel value is set. This is 230 bar +/-50 bar
If the fuel rail pressure goes outside these limits then the vehicle won't start and the glow plug light flashes
The main cause of this is the high fuel rail pressure reading due to blocked injectors ( not leaking back fuel )
This fuel system should dissipate the fuel pressure on the rail in around a minute to around 8 bar
What happens with this concern is the fuel pressure stats high around 300 bar for as long as an hour due to the inability of the injectors to leak back fuel


As I said the exact fault code is imperative to correctly diagnosing these issues as I have seem many a garage just throw parts at these engines as they don't fully understand how the system works

If you need anymore help or advice on this issue john please let me know
If you are completley satisfied with my answer /advice PLEASE CLICK ACCEPT
Kind regards XXXXX XXXXX and have a nice evening

Brian

Ps we can still continue to communicate on this issue through this post even after the accept button has been pressed

Kind regards Brian

Gallagher99, FORD SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Category: UK Ford
Satisfied Customers: 1939
Experience: SVQ LEVEL 3, QAULIFIED FORD SENIOR TECHNICIAN , ATA REGISTERD ,12 YEARS EXPERIENCE
Gallagher99 and other UK Ford Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
the sensor reading was indeed 2000bar with the engine off! can you expand on this and the common rail. can the cr be refurbished?
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there , ok if the fuel pressure was 2000 bar then the most likely concern would be the wiring eg open circuit between the sensor and the PCM

I have seen One case John where the signal wire was showing 4.5 -4.8 volts
To trace exactly where the fault was I cut the signal wire and measuresed each side of it
The signal from the sensor was 0.5 volts and the from the PCM was 4.5 volts thus indicating that the PCM was faulty (shorted internally )

You cannot repair the fuel rail pressure sensor
The rail itself is. Just a piece of steel the sensor screws into the rail

Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
ok brian. much appreciated. would you recommend first checking wiring / connections then disconnecting / reconnecting the battery before trying again? failing that, communicating with the system again if the fault is still there. i guess we could be looking at a new sensor or pcm?

thanks,
john.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Relist: Other.
other views would be most appreciated
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there John

Ok the first check must be the wiring to the fuel rail sensor
If the PCM is seeing 2000bar then this means that it assumes the circuit is open eg broken wire )
The wiring must be checked with the fuel rail sensor multiplug connected

Ideally the correct fault code should be established. Before continuing

Check the 3 wires and let me know the results

Regards. Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
brian,

with sensor disconnected i have
1) 5v
2) 0v
3) 5v

with sensor connected i have
1) 0.5v
2) 0v
3) 5v

i tried this before / after disconnecting the battery -ve terminal with the same result. they can look at the car from tomorrow so any help much appreciated.

thanks,
john.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there John ok with plug connected and ignition on here should be the readings
Use pin 2 as an earth for these checks

Pin 1. (green /white wire ) = siganal wire = 0.5 volts
Pin2 (brown /green wire ) = earth
Pin3 (yellow /green wire) =. Reference feed = 5 volts

If these readings are the same as yours then the signal wire must be check all the way back to the PCM ( pin 25 )
If you get a reading of 0.5 volts with the PCM connected at this wire then
The fuel pressure must be checked through data logger to see if it is still at 2000 bar
Basically if the wiring is ok from the sensor to the PCM ( not open circuit ) and 2000 bar is still displayed then the fault will be internal of the PCM
the correct fault code should be checked first before any parts are replaced

if you need anymore help or advice on this issue John please let me know
if you are completley satisfied with my answer/advice PLEASE CLICK ACCEPT
Kind regards XXXXX XXXXX and have a nice day

Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
brian,

from earlier you said:

1) 5v ref
2) gnd
3) signal out

is that correct or are you saying:

1) signal out
2) gnd
3) 5v ref

thanks,
john.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there John
Ok the original posts weren't the exact pin numbers

The last post is the exact pin numbers and wiring colur information

Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
ok brian. i have an uodate for you.

the garage discovered that the end of the crank shaft position sensor was shattered. they replaced this and all was well. i picked the car up and after driving about 20m, the car shut down as before with the same dash indicator (glow plugs coil light flashing).

to give you some more history, the clutch slave cylinder has a leak (this assists the return of the clutch pedal). maybe there are some fragments between gear box / clutch causing this?

your thoughts are very much appreciated. i need to replace this slave cylinder of course but i didn't think this would have resulted in this.

thanks,
john.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there John ,

Ok again the first thing
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
brian,

i don't see your answer. i see only one line: ok again the first thing ... then nothing?
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there John

Ok again the first thing that must be done is acfault code checkout hour the correct fault code it is impossible to correctly diagnose these systems
If the vehicle cysts out for any number of reasons the crankshaft sensor code is set due to the rapidly stoppage of the engine

Most smaller independent garages don't understand or have the knowlege to correctly diagnose these issues as once you start going down the wrong route with this system you can end up at a complete loss

If there is a fuel pressure issue again you need the EXACT. Code to diagnose this
This system is highly complex so some garages don't have the know how with some faults on these engines

if you need anymore help or advice on this issue please let me know
if you are completley satisfied with my answer/advice PLEASE CLICK ACCEPT
Kind regards XXXXX XXXXX and have a nice evening


Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
ok brian understood.

but is it possible for some fragment between the gear box / crankshaft to be smashing the crankshaft sensor.

thanks,
john.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.

Hi there john sorry for the delay

 

ok the most common cause of a damaged crank shaft sensor is an excessivley worn dual mass flywheel

 

I would re-check the fault codes / erase them and start with a fresh fault code eg, fuel pressure issue

 

as i said john sometimes jobs like this are better going to ford as we understand the way the systems operate and function

 

regards brian

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
brian,

what could be the cause of a damaged flywheel?

thanks,
john.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi John

The cause of a failed flywheel is down to wear
There are a few symptoms if a worn flywheel eg , clutch vibration , knocking from the gearbox when warm
When the dual mass flywheel is worn it can cause starter motor issues through metal contamination /swarf
The flywheel will be checked when the slave cylinder is being replaced as the slave cylinder is inside the gearbox

Again John the fault can only be rectified if correct diagnosis is carried out using the relavent fresh fault code


if you need anymore help or advice on this issue johnplease let me know
if you are completley satisfied with my answer/advice PLEASE CLICK ACCEPT
Kind regards XXXXX XXXXX and have a nice evening

Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
brian,

an update for you. they are dropping the gear box to investigate and replace flywheel / clutch / slave cylinder. i take it the ford dealer will use all the latest parts.

what components do you recommend i replace while the gearbox is out including seals / bearings. is there any other work you recommend.

is it poss. to just clean-up around the starter motor if there is swarf there? also, can this result in gearbox / transmission damage?

your help is very much appreciated brian.

thank,
john.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there John sorry for the delay in replying

Ok with the gearbox removed I would advise dirtying a new clutch /slave cylinder and if there is any signs of play or excess movement in the flywheel I would also replace this as to remove and inststall the gearbox takes around 7 hours doing this prevents repeat repairs

Ok as it is A ford dealer they will replace the gearbox oil and a few nuts and bolts Etc

It is advisable to replace both driveshaft deals but this is only an advisory

If there is only a small anount if swarf then it cdn be cleaned but if starter motor has excessive metal Swarf And the teeth look burred or worn damaged then I would replace the starter motor as well


This fault will not affect the actual internal transmission /gearbox

Hi there , good evening to you
Iam a uk ford senior the last expert you were working with was from ford USA

Ok the fault will lie with the instrument cluster ( very common on the old shape focus )
The symptoms are random lights appearing and staying on with no faults or fault codes
This fault sometimes causes all the gauges to drop fans the dash display to switch off then everything will come back to life

The cause is contact corrosion on the printed circuit board inside the cluster

Ford has so many problems with these cluster that the price was dropped from £250 down to £60
From memory the new clusters now cost around £80
These clusters do not need progrmed after fitting them
And Also the mileage will read zero as there is no function to re-write the mileage into the new cluster


if you need anymore help or advice on this issue john please let me know
if you are completley satisfied with my answer/advice PLEASE CLICK ACCEPT
Kind regards XXXXX XXXXX and have a nice evening

Brian

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
brian,

an update for you. the mondeo crankshaft position sensor was removed but this time there was no damage which was unexpected! was expecting this to be damaged like the last one. anyway the original fault code was "fuel pressure sensor". after the 2nd breakdown the fault code was "crankshaft position sensor". now the fault code is again "fuel pressure sensor".

any ideas would be most appreciated.

thanks,
john.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Relist: Other.
other views much appreciated
Expert:  Mike replied 2 years ago.
Hello and Welcome back to justanswer..

My name is XXXXX XXXXX am happy to help / add views to your question as you request..

You can pretty much ignore the crank sensor code.. you can get this if the tests are not carried out when the engine is running or cranking - as its not putting out a signal.

Having read all through - your problem is certainly fuel / pressure related.

The code that is common on these is P0191.. and can also be injector pump or injector problems..(very common issues on these )..not necessarily sensor / rail fault... so bear that in mind.

There is a Ford technical bulletin on these issues to inc that and other codes... have a read through - I will give it you as follows:

  • All models, 10/01-02/02 on...
Problem
  • Engine runs erratically or fails to start.
Cause
  • Low fuel rail pressure.
  • Worn high-pressure fuel pump rollers and shoes.
  • Insufficient bedding of rollers during early life.
  • If fault present: Glow plug warning lamp will be flashing.
Remedy
Parts
DescriptionPart numberQuantity
High-pressure fuel pump, vehicles →04/021 201 2321
Fuel injectors1 152 9894
Fuel rail1 144 3301
High-pressure fuel supply line1 132 9132
High-pressure fuel supply line1 132 9142
High-pressure fuel supply line1 151 0561
Fuel supply line1 149 1731
Fuel return line1 212 2591
Fuel return line (S, N, FIN, DK)1 211 331
Pipe assembly, leak off1 143 0951
Connector, leak off1 135 1601
Kit, leak off1 209 8131
Gasket, high-pressure fuel pump1 146 9581
Seal, high-pressure fuel pump1 201 2471
Kit, protection-blanking plugs1 204 2341
Fuel filter1 137 0261
  • Access fault memory.
  • Check for following trouble codes: P0109, P0191, P0251, P1211, P2288, P2291.
  • If one or more codes present: Remove fuel filter.
  • Drain contents, inspect for deposits (black with silver particles).
  • If 11 mm diameter or more, checked using a dropper sample on a ruler: Remove fuel tank and flush.
  • Replace parts as listed.


I would actually suggest you have the aid of a local Diesel Specialist on this - they are au fait with these problems and have all the necessary test equipment etc to get this sorted for you..

Im very pleased to have helped you ..


>>> Please don't forget to click the "Accept button" for me Now - Thank You ...

Please note , you need to press the Accept button even if you are a subscriber to justanswer - thank you again.

Kind Rgds - MIKE

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