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sprinkles08
sprinkles08, ASE Certified Technician
Category: UK Car
Satisfied Customers: 22286
Experience:  ASE Master and Advanced level certified. Factory trained with 15 years dealership experience
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Got an open question with another technician but want to

Customer Question

Hi there, got an open question with another technician but want to swap to you. Its the same PT but new issue. New issue is will not start. Cranks OK. spark at 2 and 3 plugs - none at 1 and 4.
Replaced the coil pack since HT terminals rusty. signal to 1 and 4 seems weak. Going to retest this am. There is no hint of it firing on 2 and 3. Plugs are very wet. Help
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: UK Car
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

Hello and welcome to JustAnswer!

You may have a coil driver issue either with the PCM or wiring between the PCM and coil, or you may have a cam timing issue. Improper cam timing can cause a loss of a coil driver.

ARe any codes currently setting?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi there,So no codes apart from P1634 - got the code from the ignition 3 on/off key cycle. P1634 and Done.Checked the wiring from the coil pack to the PCM connector P11 to pin 3 of the coil pack Plugs 1&4. P3 to pin 1 of the coil pack Plugs 2&3. Oops didn't write down which connector believe it was the black - lower one. It was a short circuit measured with the multimeter.I added a picture of the front pulley. the inner ring is the cam sensor pin - white mark indicates 5V measured with the multimeter. the outer ring indicates the crankshaft sensor. the white dots and line indicate 8V measured with the multimeter.
The T at about 10:00 is TDC - no 1 piston at the top - might be 180 degrees out. Is this what you expect from the sensors? BTW turning by hand.So spark plugs 1&4 I got a single spark whilst turning the engine on the key. but for 2&3 SP are got a spark which looked sensible - every turn. But with the engine back together there is no hint of the fuel/air mix firing and the plugs are getting wet.At the low tension side of the coil pins for 1&4 and 2&3 are on with the ignition - 12Volts.The PT was sitting warming up on the drive last Monday when it just stopped. Initially it made some effort to fire but totally dead now.Hope to hear from you soon.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

I'm a full time tech and at work this afternoon,I'll get back to you as quickly as I can!

Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

Did you test the coil driver circuit for a short to power and ground also?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I'm only testing at the coil pack connector which has 3 wires. I had 12 volts on the middle wire. I didn't do a ohms test on this cable. The spark on 2&3 looked ok. What pin does the middle pin go to on the PCM. Also is this wire joined to other 12 volt supplies to sensors? I assume ground is taken from the rocker cover securing bolts?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

In this paragraph what did you mean with the last sentence?

Checked the wiring from the coil pack to the PCM connector P11 to pin 3 of the coil pack Plugs 1&4. P3 to pin 1 of the coil pack Plugs 2&3. Oops didn't write down which connector believe it was the black - lower one. It was a short circuit measured with the multimeter.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I measured ohms with the multimeter and it was near enough to 0 ohms or a short circuit. That's what is meant from the last sentence - "It was a short circuit measured with the multimeter."I rechecked the coil pack to the PCM in the connectors with a LED light and incandescent light.
so Coil pack 2&3 goes to P3. And 1&4 goes to P11. The middle connector of the coil pack goes to Pins 6, 7, 8, 13, 16, 17, 18. Which one is from the coil pack?What should I test next? And does the picture of the on/off on the pulley look correct from the crankshaft sensor and the CAM sensor? When turning the pulley I can hear what I assume is the fuel pump working.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

A scan tool or physical timing belt inspection would be needed to see if the engine is in time.

What specifically did you test with the meter when you said there was a short? Where was each lead placed?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Assume you mean a diagnostic tool to read the PCM codes? Used a couple but neither returned anything. I thought the back and forth with the key brings out all codes to the mileometer like P1834. WOuld be as reliable as a scan tool?Taken the grommet out of the cam belt dust cover shield and can see the cams turning OK. Would not expect it to slip - do the cam pulleys have keys on them? The belt has been replace a few years ago. Car is on about 120k miles.I haven't replaced any low tension leads. I tested them for 0 ohms which is a short to me which is expected for a cable between two points.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

An actual scan tool would be needed to look at data.

The cam sprockets do have keys which can shear, and the belt could jump without breaking.

Its more likely that you have a failed coil driver in the PCM. The circuit should be load tested from the PCM to coil as well as checking for a short to power or ground. If the coil driver is not present yet the wiring is good then the problem is either incorrect cam timing or a failed driver. Physical timing would need to be checked or a scan tool used to monitor cam/crank sync.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
OK. I don't have a scan tool which can look at data - I assume wave forms.I would be surprised the belt has shifted but is there an easy way to check this? Can I remover the rocker cover to check or is it off with the belt cover?just checked again at the plugs 1 and 2. I connected a strobe light and number 2 flashed OK and it look it could be the correct position WRT to no1 of by 90degrees. nothing from plug lead 1 not spark.So does the PCM have a driver circuit for each coil?How can I load test the PCM?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

The outer timing covers would need to be removed to verify cam timing without a scan tool.

Yes, the PCM has a driver to operate each of the coils. You have one driver not working either because of a failed driver, short or open in the circuit between the PCM and coil, or incorrect cam timing.

The PCM itself can't be tested. The wiring and cam timing have to be eliminated as a possible cause and then the PCM can be condemned.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I will double check the 3 wires on the coil pack now. I'm sure there was not a short to ground or an open circuit. With ignition on I think they are all 12V. Cranking there is a fluctuation read on the multimeter.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

You would need to use an incandescent test light.

You're not concerned with the dark green/orange wire, which has 12v. You're concerned with the driver wires which are pulsed ground.

If both drivers are actually present and pulsing ground but one coil isn't producing spark then it has to be a coil issue, but that's probably not the case if it has been replaced.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Just checked the 3 wires with a incandescent test light. The light lit but dipped when cracking for all three. No2 plug sparked - nothing from no1. No2 looks a bit weak. its earthed to the battery negative with jump leads. I have replaced the coil pack since the issue started last Monday. Reason is no4 HT was quite rusty.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

You won't connect a test light to battery negative to check the coil drivers, the drivers pulse ground. The alligator clip of the test light would be connected to battery positive.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
OK. check connected to +ve for all 3 wires?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

No, you're not concerned with the dark green/orange wire, just the driver wires.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
OK. both behaved the same. light on when ignition on. when cranking the incandescent test light didn't come on.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

If done correctly with the correct equipment then one of the wires would have pulsed ground, if you do have spark on two cylinders. If you no longer have spark on any cylinder then results would be valid.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
With the incandescent test light I connected one end to pin 1 then swapped over to pin 3. the other end with the croc on it was connected to the +ve of the battery. And will check for a spark on plug 1 and 2.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
with the ignition off both 1 & 3 the light is on. with the ignition on they are off. nothing when cracking but no2 did spark - weakly.I'm sure I'm hearing the fuel pump relay click and the fuel pump run. when stop cracking the relay clicks and the light comes on.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

If done correctly and with correct equipment the test light will flash when cranking if a coil driver is present. If you've now lost spark entirely and neither driver circuit flashed then you either have a wiring problem with each driver circuit, both drivers have failed or the engine is out of time.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
This is the cars second PCM which was replaced in February 2011. The reason for the replacement was p0601 - Is it sensible to try the original PCM with the p0601 error. The PT was driving just fine when it was swapped over. Its been stored nicely in a draw in my home. What are the chances of it being damaged?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

Yes, if you still have the other PCM and it was working when removed then you can finitely try it.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
done that and it did not start. plug 1 no spark - plug 2 looked OK. got code p1634 and p0601.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

It was P1684, correct?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I will check after dinner the code - what ever the battery removal code is. just removing the top cam cover shield to check timing. Assume looking for two arrows pointing at each other on the cam pulleys.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

Checking cam timing requires removing both outer covers, the crank has to be turned by hand to line up it's mark and then the cam marks can be looked at.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
firstly I will line up the pulleys and check TDC on no1. once the engine mount it out - it should not take much longer to take the bottom cover of. provide the pulley comes of.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

To fully remove the timing covers you need to remove the core support, grille, upper and lower torque struts, the splash shield, crank damper, discharge the a/c and remove the lines, the upper torque strut bracket, support the engine and remove the motor mount bolt, remove the power steering pump bracket, remove the pump from the engine mount bracket, remove the mount bracket, and then the covers can be removed.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
thanks for your help today. its late in the UK. code was 1684. What are these bits?
core support - is the horizontal support for the radiator across the front?, grille - assume that's the grill at the front of the PT, upper and lower torque struts - and these aluminum casings supporting the engine - one at the top and the other below the crank damper.that bracket bolted to the engine stopping the upper and lowers coming off - how is that removed? can't get to the bolt at the back.got the crank shaft damper off. putting the key at the top and looking at the cam pulleys the notches don't line up.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
two other observations today. it appeared to attempt to start on the final test. when turning over by hand there is some mechanical noise. not much but something going on. it could be one of the auxiliary components.cam belt replaced at 92k miles when a head gasket was fitted and its done about 120k miles now
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

The core support is the horizontal part above the radiator where the hood latch mounts.

The grille is the body panel in front of the radiator.

The torque struts are on the right side, upper and lower, and are mounts that control engine fore/aft movement.

I'm not sure which other bracket you're referring to without more of a description.

The key on the crank sprocket isn't related to the position of the timing mark.

If there is mechanical noise when turning the engine by hand that may be related, but if the timing belt has 30,000 miles on it that makes it much less likely to have jumped time.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I'm not sure which other bracket you're referring to without more of a description"I assume it's the engine mount on the cam pulley side of the engine. think it has 3 * 15mm bolts and 55 torque through the middle of it which you undo from under the front wing after removing the plastic grommet. also the power steering pump is bolted to it. also it has a bracket on the chassis leg which is held on with 4 * 13mm bolts. seems quite difficult to remove.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

That's the engine mount bracket. Removing it is the reason the power steering pump, it's bracket, the torque struts, etc are removed. It should be held to the chassis with the Torx bolt only, if you can upload a picture of what you're questioning it would be helpful.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
OK - will be tomorrow now. its the 15mm bolt the furthest from the power steering pump which I have not got to yet.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

Raising the engine will help when removing the bolts, the engine has to be raised to get the bracket out anyway.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Picture says it all - it was the idler. the timing is out by a few teeth - do I expect any damage to the valves, rockers or lifters?does that engine mount need to be undone to get the bracket out? I had already loosen it off before you provided your instructions.BR,
Andy
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

Great, I'm glad you found it!

There won't likely be valve damage. It's technically not interference but the valves can hit each other. I've seen valve damage on these on a few occasions but they're usually ok.

The mount in the frame doesn't need to be removed to get the mount bracket out, the mount actually calls for engine removal to replace it because of the lack of clearance.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Cam belt kit and water pump ordered. Water pump looks brand new. Thinking about re-assembly. I assume the notch on the cam pulleys point at each other 3:00 exhaust and 9:00 inlet. this makes the dowels keys point down and up. the crank is obvious. the hydraulic tensioner. hows this meant to be setup. the pin turns but I can't push it in by hand. do they get replaced? Any think else I should look out for?
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

The only other thing you'll want to look at is make sure the cam seals aren't leaking, this would be the time to replace them.

The marks on the cam sprockets do line up. With the engine in time the crank mark will line up, no slack between the crank and cam sprockets, and you'll use a straightedge across the cam marks to make sure they line up. With the straightedge on the outside marks, the inside marks will be slightly high, but if one was a tooth off it would be obvious.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
The cam seals would have been done when the head was rebuilt. finally got it timed up. I ran the engine for a few seconds just now. still got the covers of etc. But started no problems.
Expert:  sprinkles08 replied 1 year ago.

Great!