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A management wiring diagram for the S65 V8 showing connections..TPS

Customer Question

1. Where can I get a management wiring diagram for the S65 V8 showing connections to the ECU?
2. Can you direct me to information to the TPS and Drive by wire actuator.

Many thanks

Elgan Howell
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: UK Car
Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.

Billy :

However, you should note that the throttle unit will need reprogramming upon reconnection.

Billy :

This programming can be done using a BMW scan tool (GT1), autologic scan tool or equivalent (available to BMW specialists)

Billy :
Customer :

Many thanks for your contribution.




  1. You comment that I “should note that the throttle unit will need reprogramming upon reconnection”. I notice that communication is via CAN from the ECU, but can you tell me whether the intelligence is in the ECU and that this is simply a linearising function at throttle fully closed and fully open and carried out by the ECU, or does the potentiometer have its own intelligence. I cannot see any reference in your diagram with regards XXXXX XXXXX Throttle Pedal position sensor (PPS) and can you please add this to the diagram.






    1. Are the TPS and actuators as shown for both Banks identical respectively? I notice they have different identity TPS are R62521 and R62522 and the Actuators are Y 5392 and Y 5393. Looking at the diagram I can’t help thinking that the actuators are different in that pin 4 on Bank 1 is Ground and pin 4 on Bank 2 is 12 Volts via the relay, unless it is something to do with the conventional “H Bridge” configuration. However a specification for each would be helpful.




    1. One last point, could you provide information regarding terminology used in the circuit diagram such as the meaning to the following:



    15 ...assume this is ECU 12 V


    31 ...assume this is ECU Gnd


    DKP+


    DKP1


    DKP1+


    DKP1-


    S_DK1


    DKPS1


    M_DKG


    U_HR<78


    I can make assumptions but rather be sure.



    I will have many more questions relating to the ignition coils and Knock sensing, but will leave that for another topic later.



    Many thanks


    Elgan Howell.

    Customer :

    Many thanks for your contribution.




    1. You comment that I “should note that the throttle unit will need reprogramming upon reconnection”. I notice that communication is via CAN from the ECU, but can you tell me whether the intelligence is in the ECU and that this is simply a linearising function at throttle fully closed and fully open and carried out by the ECU, or does the potentiometer have its own intelligence. I cannot see any reference in your diagram with regards XXXXX XXXXX Throttle Pedal position sensor (PPS) and can you please add this to the diagram.




    1. In order to understand the system better I therefore need to know the function of each (pin) connection to the (Throttle) TPS, the (Pedal) PPS and the Actuator. Regarding the TPS unit, pin 6 is obviously the 5V reference from the ECU but which pin is the ground reference and which pin is the signal output. Therefore a specification sheet of each would help showing input and output functionality and whether it is a potentiometer device, a hall effect device or a custom part for this engine alone..




    1. Are the TPS and actuators as shown for both Banks identical respectively? I notice they have different identity TPS are R62521 and R62522 and the Actuators are Y 5392 and Y 5393. Looking at the diagram I can’t help thinking that the actuators are different in that pin 4 on Bank 1 is Ground and pin 4 on Bank 2 is 12 Volts via the relay, unless it is something to do with the conventional “H Bridge” configuration. However a specification for each would be helpful.




    1. One last point, could you provide information regarding terminology used in the circuit diagram such as the meaning to the following:



    15 ...assume this is ECU 12 V


    31 ...assume this is ECU Gnd


    DKP+


    DKP1


    DKP1+


    DKP1-


    S_DK1


    DKPS1


    M_DKG


    U_HR<78


    I can make assumptions but rather be sure.



    I will have many more questions relating to the ignition coils and Knock sensing, but will leave that for another topic later.



    Many thanks


    Elgan Howell.

    Billy :

    Hello again!

    Billy :

    1- both units are intelligent....they both have memory, processing power etc....

    Customer :

    Hi Billy

    Billy :

    That is why they are linked via CAN bus (controller area network)....that would mean, that both are fully functionnal control modules "speaking to eachother"

    Customer :

    Sorry for the duplication but a paragraph was missed out in the first transmission for some reason.

    Customer :

    Kind regards

    Billy :

    the TPS, actuators, sensors (potentiometer), and sensor within the electrical motor (actuator) are the same for both banks.

    Billy :

    The connections of both units are different....the mounting of both units is different. But both units are the same (same internal components)....and both components communicate the same way with the engine control unit.

    Billy :

    15 is +12 volts (ignition)...meaning you would not have 12 volts on this line if ignition is off

    Billy :

    31 is ground (- battery or chassis etc..)

    Billy :

    DK means its digital....the signal would be squared...not analogue......

    Billy :

    U is the voltage line (that powers the component...electrical motor).

    Billy :

    Regards,

    Billy :

    Billy

    Customer :

    Thanks for that. Can you add the Pedal potentiometers ont the circuit ?

    Customer :

    I belive you missed this para.

    Customer :

    1. In order to understand the system better I therefore need to know the function of each (pin) connection to the (Throttle) TPS, the (Pedal) PPS and the Actuator. Regarding the TPS unit, pin 6 is obviously the 5V reference from the ECU but which pin is the ground reference and which pin is the signal output. Therefore a specification sheet of each would help showing input and output functionality and whether it is a potentiometer device, a hall effect device or a custom part for this engine alone..

    Customer :

    Many thanks

    Customer :

    Elgan

    Billy :

    Hello Elgan,

    Billy :

    I do not have such specs. sheet. However, i can confirm the following:

    Billy :

    the accelerator pedal itself has a potentiometer.

    Billy :

    The throttle actuator measure by hall effect.

    Billy :

    Signals are transferred through the CAN network....this being the fastest method.

    Billy :

    The pedal is not custom (it is used on other BMWs).

    Billy :

    pedal position sensor...that is.

    Billy :

    and here is the diagram for the PPS:

    Billy :

    click here

    Billy :

    You cannot add potentiometers....as there are two types of signals....analog (potentiometer) and digital (info through CAN)....and if both types don't converge on the same data, you will have running problems.

    Customer :

    I will have a look shortly and be back. I am not used to this chatting method but looks very useful. More reasons and backround to follow so that you can understand my problem.

    Customer :

    Best regards

    Customer :

    Elgan

    Billy :

    Cheers!

    Customer :

    Hi Billy


     


    Thanks for the pedal box circuit diagram.


     


    In the Hall potentiometer diagram there seems to be two groups FWG1 and FWG2 but what does FWG stand for and can you tell me the meaning of the prefix : M_, U_ and A_.


     


    Further, what are the X numbers, e.g. X 11400 in these diagrams.


     


    I am also unable to correlate the pin numbers for the DME control module you show in this diagram. The connector on our ECU has four groups.


    Group A ... six pins for VVC Bank 1 & 2


    Group B ... 12 pins used for injector outputs


    Group C ... 26 pins used for Ignition outputs and cam sensors.


    Group D ... 44 pins for TPS and various others.


     


    Do you have a table showing connector pin assignments.


     


    The Group D connector pin numbers correlates with your first circuit diagram regarding DME control module but the pedal box DME module does not correlate. Please clarify.


     


    So that I can get my head around this I need to understand BMW’s terminology.


     


    You have explained that DK is digital, U is an applied DC voltage, 15 is 12V via Ign and 31 is chassis/Gnd. The 5V reference shown in the TPS diagrams earlier is shown as DKP+. Does this mean it is digital as a pulse width modulated voltage reference or am I barking up the wrong tree?


     


    Best regards


     


    Elgan

    Billy :

    Hello Elgan,

    Billy :

    KP is control module in german....(the others are in german, hence my inability to explain all)....

    Billy :

    It is a PWM signal powering the actuator.

    Billy :

    The X references are for connector photos (so you see an X11400, you how to search for its photo)

    Billy :

    All the abbrevations are in german....i will include all the description i can:

    Billy :

    These are the ones, i have available:

    Customer :

    the meaning of the prefix : M_, U_ and A_. I assume that M is gnd ref, U is 5V ref and A is the analogue o/p. but a pure guess. The DME pin numbering does not look right unless you included the diagram from a different application, but it would be good to be able to have the correct assignment to agree with Group A,B, C, and D as above. I will be back later.

    Customer :

    Thanks Elgan

    Billy :

    u is for tension (voltage) m is ground...a analog...spot on!

    Billy :

    I do not have the control module pin out chart (or i would ;ve included this)

    Billy :

    click here1 here2 and here3 for description

    Billy :

    Cheers!

    Customer :

    Hi Billy When you say U is for voltage, does this also mean Reference voltage such as 5V commonly used for Reference and derived from the ECU.


     


    Thanks for the tables. I can see your problem in identifying terminology probably because the source is in German, but I am sure they will become useful in time. Can you send me similar table of terminology starting in DK and with S?


     


    Best regards


     


    Elgan


     

    Customer :

    In addition to the above tables beginning with DK and S can you give me part numbers for the TPS unit and the actuator so that I can study in more detail.

    Customer :

    Many thanks

    Customer :

    Elgan

    Billy :

    Hello Elgan,

    Billy :

    The terminology sheets are the only ones available...i would've sent the others if i had them now.

    Billy :

    U is for voltage and reference.

    Billy :

    Part numbers: throttle position sensor: 13627841704

    Billy :

    throttle body, (cylinders 1,8): 13547838245

    Billy :

    throttle body, (cylinders 2, 3, 6, 7): 13547838246

    Billy :

    throttle body, (cylinders 4, 5): 13547841816

    Billy :

    accelerator pedal position sensor: manual trans: 35426786286

    Billy :

    accelerator pedal position sensor: dct trans.: 35426786285

    Billy :
    Customer :

    Good morning.


     


    Thanks for all the part number


    This is the background of my project.


     


    I am preparing a race car using the S65 and ideally would like to use all the standard accessories such as the TPS, PPS, other sensors and actuators but with an aftermarket ECU with a custom race harness. Therefore it is important that I understand the workings of all the accessories individually and hence the reason for my questions.


     


    I am trying to stay away from using conventional actuators and sensors if possible and therefore this prompts another last question connected with the TPS and Actuator as used on the S65. Will it be possible to communicate with the TPS/Actuator devices from an aftermarket racing ECU and whether information is available to make it possible to communicate with these devices?


     


    So far I have only the loom to work with and I have tracked all the connections and so far they are in agreement with your ECU pin numbering with exception of the Pedal box numbering in your circuit diagram for the DME controller. Do I assume correctly that this DME controller is the same one as in the first diagram?


     


    Once this is done my next question will be regarding the ignition coils and the two capacitors in the loom.


     


    Once you have answered this note I will now “accept” your charges and give you a feedback but hope I can still get back to you with odds and sods if I have anything to clear up on this topic and thanks for your help.


     


    Kind regards


     


    Elgan


     


     

    Customer :

    One more thing, since I can't work out the terminology without the tables can you tell me what all the connections between the TPS, the ECU and the actuator mean. That is the name of the signal, type of signal and what does it do. That is, it's function. These are DKP+, DKP1+, DKP1-, S_DKP1, S _DK1, DKPS1 M_DKG.

    Customer :

    Many thanks

    Customer :

    Elgan

    Billy :

    Hello again,

    Billy :

    These components (throttle actuator and pedal sensor) have CAN communication lines. So they do not communicate only through the conventional analog method. If your ECU supports the CAN communications, then you should be able to use these. The DME is the same in all diagrams (another plug, but same DME).

    Billy :

    The ones i was able to analyze (and give a certain answer about), and you can still test and confirm....are: DKP+ is positive voltage from ECU (DME)......DKP- is negative from DME or ECU.......these should be 12 volts, going to power the tps

    Billy :

    The DKG should go to the transmission control module.

    Billy :

    allright....and dkps is the sensor output (going through the variable resistor or potentiometer).

    Billy :

    I will check tomorrow if i can find more specific info (but i doubt that)....as the data we have is for fixing only (not rebuilding), so much of the info you ask, will only be available from manufacturer (not to keen to disclose it may i add).

    Billy :

    A very exciting project you are working on, so i would love to hear more of it (how you get on)....

    Billy :

    Cheers!

    Billy :

    Billy

    Customer :

    Billy


     


    If I can understand how the system works in the BM installation then I will be able to work ways around when installing using our aftermarket ECU and therefore the reason for all the questions. I will keep you informed of progress.


     


    The ECU obviously has CAN and so does the actuator, but as far as I can see the TPS and the Pedal sensor do not have CAN or built in intelligence.


     


    According to the circuit diagram the TPS also does not have CAN but until I know what DKP1+, DKP-, S_DKP1, DKPS1 and M_DKG are then it makes it difficult to determine lines of communication from the TPS. Considering Bank 1 only, for simplicity, normally there are two potentiometer channels in a TPS and maybe in this instance there are still two channels but the signal from the unit is combined and presented to the Actuator for comparison where maybe


     


    DKP1+ is 5V Ref


    DKP1- is the Ground reference and


    S_DKP1- is the signal.


    This is pure guess work !!!!


     


    Then it follows that M_DKG might be TPS Ground and DKPS1 a signal the TPS unit to the ECU.


     


    As you say I can see that DKP+ is power from ECU pin 14 to pin 6 of TPS and is probably 5Volts ... cleared no problem but I was side tracked by your comment earlier that all DK signals are digital. Please comment and confirm regarding DK terminology.


     


     

    Customer :

    Regards

    Customer :

    Elgan

    Customer :

    Hi again


     


    Since writing the above I decided I was not getting anywhere fast so took a pedal sensor and a TPS apart to investigate and tracked the PCB on both units to determine the internal circuit. I can now categorically say that neither the Pedal sensor nor the TPS are intelligent units with processing or communicating ability.


    The Pedal Box is a straight Hall Effect device with two channels tracking the pedal position 0.5 to 4V and 0.25 and 2V on the second channel with 5 volts power applied. Can you still verify the DME control module pin numbers interfacing to the Pedal Box for me? That is, pins 10, 11, 20, 23, 24 & 7 which I can’t make sense according to the loom I have.


    The TPS is also Hall Effect of a similar design but the two channels are scaled differently with a larger rotation capability. Regarding the PTS unit one channel is fed directly to the Actuator and the other channel is fed to the ECU.


    Now that I can understand how the throttle sensor and TPS works in the circuit provided, the next hurdle will be the Actuator.


    If you can find out as much as possible on the actuator, regarding comms then that would be very useful. Also if you can find out the function of pin 1 ... S_DK1 that would also be useful. The Payment is approved.


    Many thanks


    Elgan

    Billy, Trainer/Master tech.
    Category: UK Car
    Satisfied Customers: 3279
    Experience: Trainer - master tech., SAE member
    Billy and 3 other UK Car Specialists are ready to help you
    Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.
    Hello Elgan,

    The DKP plus or minus are power supply....positive and negative as last described (in last communication)

    As for the pedal sensor: 10 and 23 are ground from ecu DME to sensor
    11 and 24 are positive supply from ecu dme to sensor
    20 and 7 are output from sensor (two channels output like a regular potentiometer).
    PS: you are right about the TPS and PPS not being "intelligent".

    The throttle actuator however is intelligent having CAN communication wires (high and low), obvious in the diagram.
    As for the actuator (bank one):3 and 4 ground
    2 fused positive to operate the stepper motor
    6 and 5 CAN high and low respectively
    9 and 8 plus and minus 5 volt reference from DME respectively (through sensor)
    7 and 1 output through sensor and then directly to dme respectively

    PS: the capacitors on the ignition circuits are noise or interference suppressors (just as the capacitor in the old ignition system parallel on the mechanical trigger).

    Kindly keep me updated....

    Regards,
    Billy
    Customer: replied 2 years ago.
    Hi Billy

    You say "As for the pedal sensor: 10 and 23 are ground from ecu DME to sensor
    11 and 24 are positive supply from ecu dme to sensor, 20 and 7 are output from sensor (two channels output like a regular potentiometer)." What I was looking for here were the pedal connection pins on the ECU as per S65 because I don't think these pins are correct. These pin numbers are in conflict with other ECU functions.

    Actuator - I agree with pin 7 as a sensor signal but can you check pin 1 (S_DK1) again.

    Ignition - I thought these capacitors were to do with detonation detection (Ionisation current sensing) but I might be wrong. If I am wrong then where are the Knock sensors and onto whick ECU pins do they connect?

    Many thanks for your contribution and it was a pleasure working with you.

    Best regards

    Elgan

    Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.
    Hello Elgan,

    The pin numbers are those on the diagram.....on DME going to pedal sensor 6 pin terminal. This diagram is for the 2008 BMW M3 S65 V8 4.0L.
    IF you find these contradicting with other functions, then you may be looking on the wrong plug on DME.
    The pin number one should be a variable positive line from DME.....check to confirm.....i wish i had the parts at hand....i would have checked and been more conclusive (or the pin assignments...)

    The capacitors are noise (interference) suppressors, here is the diagram: click here

    There is no reference for knock sensor in the diagrams.....but it is referred to in parts....having the part number: 13627566785.

    Again waiting for some "flashing" news.....

    The pleasure was all mine...

    Regards,
    Billy
    Customer: replied 2 years ago.

    Will check pin numbers on loom again. The numbers must apply to a different connector.

    Thanks

    Elgan
    Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.
    You're most welcome Sir!
    Customer: replied 2 years ago.

    Hi Billy

    Sorry to be back again but I am still having problems identifying Pedal Box connections on the ECU due to pin contention and used elsewhere.

    Looking into the ECU there are four groups of pins

    A. LHS ... Group A, (A1-A6)

    A1 – A5 allocated to VVC... pin A6 not used

    B. Top Row Left ... Group B, (B1 – B12)

    (1-6 and adjacent row 7 – 12)

    8 pins allocated to Injectors, Pin 6,19,11,12 not used

    C . Top Row Right ... Group C (C1 – C26)

    (1-13 and adjacent row 14 to 26)

    This looks as if it should be the connector used for the pedal box since the pins come in two adjacent rows 1-13 and 14-26 and it is logical that 7 & 20, 10 & 23, and 11 & 24 go in pairs BUT there is no connections made to 7 & 20 whilst 10 & 23 and 11 & 24 are used for other functions.

    For example pins 11 & 24 are used for Exhaust Cam Bank 1 and Bank 2.

    Pins 1-4 and 14 – 17 of this connector are used for Ignition and agree with the diagram you sent this morning. I have allocated pin 13 and 26 for Crank Sensor, please can you verify?

    Pins 5 to 9 and the adjacent pair 18- 22 are not used including 7 and 20 as above.

    So there is something very wrong here.

    D. Bottom Row ... Group D (D1-D44)

    (1-22 and adjacent row 23 to 44)

    This group is not logical based on pin grouping and pins connected else where. Pin 20 on this connector is already used for CAN_H and already agreed to and is paired on adjacent pin 42 with CAN _L. Further pin 10 is used for Air Temp and there is no connection to pin 11 on the loom.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Best regards

    Elgan

    Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.
    Hello again,

    I have no other diagrams for this engine (not for the pedal)...as for other systems there are many diagrams (prior and from 09/2007).

    13 and 26 are for the crankshaft position sensor.

    The pedal connectors should be connected (as you said, logically) to these pins....that's what the diagrams show as well (i have none at hand to check)...but having the wire colors, i would conduct continuity checks....

    Anyhow, i have found the terminal assignment diagrams for ECU (at work, as i did not have it home).....so this should clear out all the issues..(ps: i have looked and saw that you got it right....so confirm the pedal wiring using these diagrams):
    click here for details

    And here are the photos (although for LHD but the plug assignments should be the same):
    graphic

    graphic


    PS: kindly keep me updated....

    Thank you for trusting JA and myself.......get back to me if follow up is needed..Click ACCEPT so i get credited for my work...positive feedback and bonuses appreciated...

    http://www.justanswer.com/car/expert-billy/
    Customer: replied 2 years ago.
    Hi Billy

    Looking at the two photographs can you tell me what is the first one for, that is X60001 X6002 and X60003.???

    The lower one uses the same connector as in my loom as per four groups, X60004, X60005, X60006 and X60007. However in looking at the attacked connector pin listing, the listing is for a six cylinder engine and NOT the V8 and therefore of no use.

    Please can you resend the same for the V8 and that should do the trick.

    Many thanks

    Elgan
    Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.
    Hello again,

    My apologies for that.....i did not check before posting.....and it is true the ignition and the injector pins assignments only show 6 cylinder function.

    However, i double checked and it is listed in the data under the S65 V8 engine....and it is the only one available.....as i tried retrieving again and again, with the same result. I hoped that this would make things a lot easier.....apparently not....as now i have all the access to data on server....but somehow this is the only one listed for S65...

    I will get back to you if i find anything else....

    Regards,
    Billy
    Customer: replied 2 years ago.
    Hi Billy

    Thanks again.

    Please let me know as soon as you find information relating to the V8, because nothing ties up in the Straight Six listing shown. I can not do much until we can verify the pedal pins from to ECU because what is shown on the circuit diagram cannot be right where pin 20 is used for pedal Analogue Signal (1) as well as for CAN__H for example.

    Best regards

    Elgan
    Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.
    Hello,

    Two different data servers...and they both list the 6 cylinder assignment under the S65 V8 engine....

    I will check with a few colleagues...hopefully we get some good news soon enough....

    Regards,
    Billy
    Customer: replied 2 years ago.
    Billy

    Many thanks for trying and for our mutual benefit I wish you success..

    The only alternative I can see is possibly on the 44 pin connector. The TPS and Actuator are on this ECU connector and it would make sence to have the PPS (Pedal Pos Sen) on the same connector as well.

    Can you tell me what is on pins 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 21 and 34 of this connector and may be by the process of elimination we can home in on the Pedal sensor.

    Best

    Elgan
    Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.
    Hello Elgan,

    Unfortunately, having the wrong pin assignment file (suggesting these are not occupied, the ones you request), and not having the part at hand, make it impossible for me to find out what's on these pins....

    Again, i'm still trying to get the correct pin assignment info, or get a hand on an S65 engine soon enough....

    Regards,
    Billy
    Customer: replied 2 years ago.

    Good luck

    Elgan
    Expert:  Billy replied 2 years ago.
    Thank you!

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