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Mike
Mike, UK Car Mechanic
Category: UK Car
Satisfied Customers: 38813
Experience:  Hi, I am a Car/ vehicle technician of 34 years. 29of -running my own repair/diagnostic business.
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Fiat DUCATO XXXXX XXXXX HAVE A 1988 VAN AND WHEN I PUT IT INTO GEAR

Customer Question

HI I HAVE A 1988 VAN AND WHEN I PUT IT INTO GEAR IT WILL NOT PULL FORWARD.IT TRIES BUT THE CLUTCH JUST STARTS TO BURN.
SO A NEW CLUTCH HAS BEEN FITTED BUT THIS HAS NOT CURED THE PROBLEM
ALL THE BRAKES ARE WORKING FINE AND NOT STICKING AT ALL.
THERE IS NO NOISES IN THE GEARBOX AND WITH THE VAN ON JACKS BOTH WHEELS ARE TURNING ON THE DRIVE SHAFTS
WHEN YOU TURN ONE WHEEL THE OTHER TURNS THE OPPOSITE WAY(WHEN STOOD ON JACKS)WE BELIEVE THIS IS NORMAL.
ANY IDEAS AND PLEASE CAN YOU REPLY WITH A BIT OF DETAIL RATHER THAN "YOU HAVE A GEARBOX PROBLEM"
THANKS
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: UK Car
Expert:  Mike replied 3 years ago.
Hello and Welcome to justanswer...

If I thought you had a just a gearbox problem - then thats what I would have to say - but... this has to be thought through properly..

Its certainly not a usual issue...but something has been missed ...

Can you tell me what happened in the first place - how the problem occurred initially - and what the van was being used for at the time?

Rgds - MIKE..................................

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

HI MIKE

I HAVE A MOTOR HOME AND I HAVE BEEN STARTING IT OVER THE WINTER TO KEEP ENGINE IN RUNING ORDER.ENGINE HAS BEEN COVERED UP ECT....

THE ENGINE RUNS WELL ...NO LEAKS OR SMELLS.

I ALWAYS LEAVE THE HANDBRAKE OFF AND CHOCK THE WHEELS WHEN VAN NOT IN USE.

I CAME TO MOVE THE VAN OFF THE DRIVE AND I LIFTED THE CLUTCH AND THE VAN JUST WOULD NOT MOVE FORWARD.THE CLUTCH SMOKED SO WE THOUGHT THE CLUTCH HAD GONE.

SO WE HAVE FITTED A NEW CLUTCH AND THRUST BEARING AND CHANGED THE GEARBOX OIL.

THE DRIVE SHAFTS LOOK FINE AS IN BOTH TURNING THE WHEELS.

THE GEARBOX DRAIN PLUGS HAVE MAGNETS ON THEM(AS YOU KNOW) AND HAD NO BITS OF FIBRE ON THEM.

WHEN THE VAN IS UP ON JACKS AND I LOCATE THROUGH THE GEARS THE WHEELS TURN(BUT I CAN STOP THEM TURNING WITH MY FOOT ACTING LIKE A BRAKE.

WHAT IS TROUBLING ME IS THERE WAS NO SUDDEN NOISE OR BANG.

 

Expert:  Mike replied 3 years ago.
Hello again - Thank you for your reply..

Ok well - thinking this through... as you have described it.. the wheels are obviously free - so no brake issues - or seized bearings etc....its back from that ..

That takes us back to the drive shafts - these are obviously turning so o locked up anywhere.. or broken, so no drive.. that takes us back to the diff...

Just jumping from there to the engine.... then you have the clutch..and obviously thats all ok.. as you have renewed it - so we have the gearbox and diff in the middle / mid section - and left.

Im thinking about your initial question - where you say the van tries to move - but the clutch burns "..

Something then is holding it all back - and having worked through as above... it does sound either gearbox or diff..and as you know.. they are integral.

Jumping on for a min to the drive shafts - which is the only other area that would cause a lock up to cause such a hold up.. What you can do is have the vehicle on the ground - and put it in gear...and have someone let the clutch out slowly - ( handbrake off ) and watch to see exactly whats happening with the drive shafts.

If one or the other turns....then you have a CV joint issue - either one - either inner or outer whichever you see to be at fault. ie, if the one shaft turns - you know its that side...outer. If just the inner joint turns - you know its a fault there - loss of drive.

If none of that shows up - it has to be gearbox / diff...and further / deeper investigations would have to be made..

I cant really think of anything other - and Im sure you have worked through it too - so working through as above if you haven't already done so, that should narrow it down for you / find the problem....

I Sincerely XXXXX XXXXX have helped you - but do ask me if you need anything more..


Kind Rgds, MIKE

 

  • >>>>>>>>>Please don't forget ....Please press the ACCEPT button if you are happy with my answer/advice given - as that's how I get paid for my time, knowledge and expertise given. Thank you.

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Customer: replied 3 years ago.

hi mike

do you mean if the drive shaft turns independently(on its own) and it is not turning the wheel as though the drive shaft has sheared?

becuase the van does "try" to move as in you can see it trying a little to move forward.

if i look under the van and a drive shaft is turning but not right to the end of the shaft? is that what your saying

Expert:  Mike replied 3 years ago.
Hi again..

Thank you for your reply..

Yes thats what Im meaning - because with the wheels on the ground - the shafts shouldn't turn -

That would normally indicate a broken cv joint internally - or broken shaft yes..

So yes thats right - if the shaft is turning ( one or the other ) ....but the wheel isn't.. then the relevant outer joint has failed...

If the inner joint is turning - but the shaft isn't - then that inner joint has failed.

Further - if the gearbox is turning ( clutch out - in gear ) and nether inner shaft is turning - the fault then has to be internal - ie, transmission or diff..

I hope that clarifies for you but y all means ask me any time hence, if you need more help- You can do that any time too, even after using the accept button...and I would like to know how you get on either way ..

Best Rgds - MIKE..

 

  • >>>>>>>>>Please don't forget ....Please press the ACCEPT button if you are happy with my answer/advice given - as that's how I get paid for my time, knowledge and expertise given. Thank you.

Feedback and any Bonuses are always appreciated too. Thank you.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

hi mike

thankyou but how do i contact you after i have "accepted" your answer.....

 

i would like to try your suggestion tommorrow if that is ok with you and i promise either way to accept your answer.

is that ok

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

one other thing mike...

i have had the van stood on jacks and both wheels are turing when van in gear.

if the gearbox was faulty surely the wheels would not turn or...... would they if not under load as in wheels on the ground.

do the wheels have to be on the ground for the diff to work properly and pull the van forward

Expert:  Mike replied 3 years ago.
Hi again...

I noted that in your first / question... It needs putting on the ground ( or on ramps ) so that the wheels are held to do the tests as above..

With it in the air ( the wheels off the ground ) there is very little resistance so the wheels can be turning easily - just almost by the throw from the gearbox - not a "drive" if you understand. ie, once on the ground , where you experience the problem, its showing up. So no its quite different in the air..wheels off the ground.

So yes - test it as above ( previous ) wheels on the ground to get to the bottom of this..

As regards XXXXX XXXXX but one reply - you just click the accept.. then you will have link in an email - and also in your account - that you click on..and that will bring you straight back to this post.. You just use the Reply button again then - and your reply / s from there will come straight to me to my in box...

I hope that all helps you further -

Kind Rgds - MIKE..


 

  • >>>>>>>>>Please don't forget ....Please press the ACCEPT button if you are happy with my answer/advice given - as that's how I get paid for my time, knowledge and expertise given. Thank you.

Feedback and any Bonuses are always appreciated too. Thank you.

Mike, UK Car Mechanic
Category: UK Car
Satisfied Customers: 38813
Experience: Hi, I am a Car/ vehicle technician of 34 years. 29of -running my own repair/diagnostic business.
Mike and other UK Car Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

ok mike

i will try this...

sorry if i'm coming across a bit picky but i'm frustrated about this problem because the clutch i took out was in very good condition...new clutch cost me 50 quid and a recon gearbox will be another 150 quid so i wanted to know what the problem is before i spend money on a gearbox.

if you are pretty sure the problem can be the gearbox then i will try your suggestion tommorrow.......

Expert:  Mike replied 3 years ago.
Hi again...

No - thats no problem at all - I dont see it as picky - I fully understand..so dont worry about that ..

if you work through as above , you will narrow it right down for sure -and be able to decide where the problem is....

So do that and let me know how you get on - Im more than happy to help as much as needed..

Best Rgds - MIKE....

 

  • >>>>>>>>>Please don't forget ....Please press the ACCEPT button if you are happy with my answer/advice given - as that's how I get paid for my time, knowledge and expertise given. Thank you.

 

Feedback and any Bonuses are always appreciated too. Thank you.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK MIKE

I WILL TRY YOUR SUGGESTION...PROBABLY NOT TOMMORROW NOW.....TUESDAY WHEN MY BROTHER IS AVAILABLE...IF IT IS THE BOX IT WILL BE A WEEK OR SO BEFORE I CAN DO A REFIT..

 

I'M HAPPY TO ACCEPT AND I HOPE I CAN PICK YOUR BRAINS IF ANOTHER GEARBOX DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM IF WE DISCOVER THE DRIVE SHAFTS ARE OK.

THANKYOU AND I WILL BE IN TOUCH

Expert:  Mike replied 3 years ago.
No Problem at all....

Thank you for the accept - Get back in touch whenever ... thats fine..

Best Rgds - MIKE..
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

HI MIKE

WE HAVE TESTED THE VAN WITH WHEELS ON THE GROUND.NEITHER INNER OR OUTER DRIVE SHAFTS TURNED WHEN IN 1ST GEAR DO THEY ARE FINE NO BROKEN JOINTS ECT....

WE DID A TEST BY LIFTING THE CLUTCH IN FIRST GEAR WITH LOE REVS AND THE VAN STALLED WHICH INDICATES THE CLUTCH IS WORKING OK....DO YOU AGREE ON THAT STATEMENT?

 

I HAVE A FRIEND WHO HAS A LIITLE EXPERIANCE AND HE SENT ME THIS SUGGESTION.OBVIOUSLY I'M NOT GETTING INTO A DEBATE BETWEEN US ALL BUT DO YOU THINK HIS SUGGESTION IS WORTH TRYING:

 

Greetings.

Indeed a vexing set of symptoms. I assume it is 2 wheel drive? Petrol or Diesel (just interested).

 

To recap:

1) Initially: Engine running, clutch slipping badly and smoking.

2) Now: F.wheels turning faster and faster as you go through the gears with them off the ground but you can stop them with your foot.

Q. Is the new clutch still smoking? If so was the old clutch contaminated, ie. Engine or transmission oil leaking on to it.

Q. Did you change the release bearing as well?

Q. Can you always stop it with your foot irrespective of what gear it is in?

 

Remote diagnosis is virtually impossible but on the face of it:

1) The Clutch is transmitting drive to the input shaft.

2) The quality of this transmission is unknown but appears to be very weak - What can cause this....

1) Incorrect adjustment (clutch is only just engaging perhaps due to sticky mechanism or incorrect adjustment)

2) Linings are badly contaminated.

It is possible the gears are NOT actually engaging but are being dragged by oil friction (quite common to jack up a drive wheel and it turns weakly with the engine running even out of gear... still I expect you know that).

 

What to do:

Difficult as you have some contradictory symptoms. But I would firstly eliminate the differential and work through the gears. This will only take a few minutes.

With BOTH front wheels off the ground, and the engine OFF, but IN GEAR try and turn one of the wheels by hand. If the diff is good and AND the gears are transmitting power to the flywheel the other front wheel will turn in the opposite direction. Now prevent it from turning either by chocking it or having and assistant hold it firmly and try to turn your wheel. It should be difficult but possible to turn the engine over manually this way. Note what happens and then try it with the other gears. Obviously the higher gears will be harder to turn the engine over manually.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens. If any of the gears can turn the engine over (with the spark plugs still in) then it suggests the clutch is good. If not then either the clutch is slipping terribly or the differential is broken (possibly the end of one of the driveshafts snapped off, but this does correlate with the original clutch smoking symptom). Off the top of my head I cannot think of another internal gearbox issue that would affect ALL gears short of a catastrophic gear shaft snapping.

 

Let me know how you get on.

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