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Ivan
Ivan, ASE Certified Master Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 4871
Experience:  Toyota Expert,ASE Master Tech w/ 20+ yrs in the field. Self employed for 9 years. AUTOLAB radio show
10772012
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Honda Accord: Ivan a new line of questioning

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Ivan a new line of questioning
Hello there sir! I saw your conversation the other day. I was at a drive in movie. He gave you good advice all the way through. How are you making out?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Wow, drive in movie. Haven't been to one of those in a while. A few more questions that I didn't think of the other day. Do I replace all the bolts with new ones?

What year is the Accord again? I will check to see if they need to be replaced.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Sorry, 95 Accord LX with 4 cylinder non-VTEC.

I don't see any reference to replacing the head bolts on your car. You can reuse them.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

How about the tensioner? Replace or use the old one?

Definitely replace that. You don't want to tear it apart twice.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I'm trying to visualize this operation. Won't I have to remove the camshaft, valve springs, etc. to send the head to the for milling?

The valves will be adjustable. The head should be milled and you should have them perform a valve job. Camshafts will have to come out along with all the incidentals, but the springs and valve you can leave in.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Is this more complicated than I anticipated or does it just seem that way because I've never done one?

Very straight forward. Remove the caps that hold the camshafts evenly and from the outside in towards the center. Keep all the components in reference with each other. Set them out in the same order on a bench or in a box. When you reinstall, do the exact opposite. Slowly tighten evenly from the inside out.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

If I leave the springs and valves alone how do they do a valve job? They only remove metal from the gasket side, right?

They will remove the valves and springs, clean up the valves, cut the seats, deck the head, then reassemble with new valve seals.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Relative cost? Milling only happens on the gasket side?

Correct, usually around $250-$300
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Even with 208,000 miles I believe this is better than a can of sealant wouldn't you agree. I'll use Honda OEM parts unless you can suggest a less expensive alternative. I'm going to do this in my garage rather than my gravel driveway this time. My wife has been wanting me to clean it up a bit anyway.

I agree. Use the Honda parts too. The pricing is close and you know the quality will be there. It is worth doing.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

It's going to be a long process. I have to work on it in increments. Thanks

You are welcome as always. Take your time and remember cleanliness is the key.
Ivan, ASE Certified Master Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 4871
Experience: Toyota Expert,ASE Master Tech w/ 20+ yrs in the field. Self employed for 9 years. AUTOLAB radio show
Ivan and 4 other Toyota Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Ivan, seeking your input about purchasing a torque wrench. I need to find a decent 3/8" for this cylinder head job. I have a 25 year old Sears DigiTork. Not sure of its accuracy now. I've seen a Sears DigiTork (electronic scale, but clicks when reaching its specified torque). I also saw an Eastland wrench. Actually, two of them. One is fully electronic and one is an electronic torque-angle. Both around a hundred bucks. Also saw a Kobalt and Husky. So many choices. Which would you recommend? All are around 10-20 to 100 ft lbs.
I will take a look and give you my thoughts in a few hours.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Thanks. No rush. Just getting prepped up. I found that I could take my head to Carquest or NAPA to be milled. They send it to Raleigh to the shop. I'm in Durham, NC.
Do a little search on click style torque wrenches. I have never been a fan of digital ones for the reason that batteries end up dying by the time you need it again. I also and suspicious of their accuracy as the batteries weaken. Give me some examples to look at with part numbers and I'll help you make a decision. If you truly desire a digital one, give me those examples with part numbers and I'll research them for you too.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I've been thinking along the same lines with electronic. Nice if I use them every day, but there's something about the click style. Snap On seems to be the standard, but for me way to expensive considering the amount of use. More for professionals like yourself. I was looking at a CDI (made by Snap On) for 126 bucks on Amazon. Also looked at a Husky and Kobalt. Links below.


http://www.amazon.com/Torque-1002MFRMH-8-Inch-Handle-Wrench/dp/B002LA19P2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1377050993&sr=8-2&keywords=cdi+torque+wrench


 


http://www.lowes.com/pd_337333-22328-85601_0__?productId=3381200&CAWELAID=1023903038


 


 


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-3-8-in-Click-Torque-Wrench-H3DTW/202916179#customer_reviews


 

I'll tell you, you can't go wrong for $40 for the Kobalt. From the reviews they stand behind their product and will recalibrate the unit over time. Go with that one. I have a Snap On one that I bought when I was 12 years old, because it was shiny and looked cool. I never knew then what I was going to do with my life, and I still have and use it. Bought it for $50 many moons ago.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I wasn't sure my 25 year old Sears DigiTork would be accurate. It's nice because I turn the dial to set the torque which I can see through a window. The end cap is pulled from the end and turned to set the torque. It snaps back for a positive grip and no chance of the torque setting slipping. I just wasn't sure if the price of the Kobalt one was an indication of enough quality for this type of job. Maybe I'll buy one of the 50 dollar adapters to check the calibration just because.

That is worth having regardless. I recheck my torque stick against the torque wrench all the time just to make sure they are still accurate. Check your old one and see if it is still accurate. I'll bet it is.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

When I get ready to remove the head, don't I loosen the bolts from the outside in and turn each one a quarter turn at a time until all the bolts will come out by hand? Been watching YouTube and see that often.

That is a good plan. You don't have to go with such little amounts as 1/4 turns, just loosen them even amounts. Since the head is going to be resurfaced, it is not as crucial. Just work evenly from the outside in and you will be good.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

One of the videos had the guy using his impact wrench to remove the bolts. He did go from the outside in, but that was a little disconcerting to me.

That is how I do it when I am having the heads rebuilt. I would be a little more sensitive if I was not going to take that step. But since you are, any warping will be corrected by the machining.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Is there a chance the head doesn't need resurfacing or should I tell then to do it anyway? I know they run a pressure test first.

I would not risk it. Have it done. If the headgasket is leaking, it is most likely warped.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK. Thanks.

You are welcome. It is far too much labor to take a chance of it not coming out perfect.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Ivan, the destruction has now begun. Several things I have learned so far......dirty job since this engine is coated with oil everywhere!!!! I've had to move a few more things (brackets, etc.) out of the way to get to fasteners. I can't pull the exhaust manifold forward as the manual says. I have two choices here....remove the 3 very rusted bolts where the manifold meets the first part of the exhaust or remove the bracket that holds the exhaust pipe steady under the car near the first joint which has the two bolts with the springs. I'm betting the bracket and bolts with springs is my best bet at this point. The intake manifold is more challenging. I have the top four bolts off and need to work on the bottom ones next (penetrating oil is working now). It looks like I would be better removing the oil filter to get to things better also. I am also sending some photos. Only one fastener issue so far. If you look at the photo with the top timing belt cover you'll see the fastener on the bottom left. The larger part fits into the small cover which goes under the cam sprocket. This bolt was so tight it broke the plastic and would spin. The large part is supposed to have the plastic molded around it. I had to put the piece in my bench vise to get the screw out. The timing belt isn't centered. There is at least an inch of slack in the belt on the radiator side and just a little on the firewall side. Here's where I placed my jack stand for safety.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Liberate those spring bolts down below, you can easily buy a replacement set. That will give you room to slide the manifold. For the belt, replace the timing belt with the tensioner, idler pulley, and water pump as you do this. One of those having play will cause the belt to drift in one direction. Also having to do that with the cover is not uncommon.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Everything is getting replaced. Good reason to do the tensioner because of the obvious drift. Is that slack on the front side norm? Slack on the front and more tension on the backside? Any tips on how to get the intake exhause off?

There will be no slack with the new belt. A tip is try to double nut the studs and remove them, then you can slide the manifold up or down.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Do I need to depressurization the fuel system to remove the intake manifold?
Yes, if you are disconnecting the fuel lines.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
In most cases I don't need to remove the fuel lines?
Correct, if you can reposition the intake manifold without disconnecting the fuel lines, you can leave them be.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Just a little update. Got the intake mainfold pushed back far enough to clear the studs. Had to remove some extra bolts and I took the oil filter off. That made it easier access. I'm going to change the sensor above the oil pan in that area (I believe it's a oil sensor) and change the oil pan gasket. The lower timing cover is a bear to slide out, but I did it. It took the pulley removal tool, a six foot cheater, and my 230 lbs to snap the crankshaft bolt. It popped a good one when it gave. The only trouble I have now is the tensioner bolt. It won't give. There isn't enough room between it and the fender to put in anything thicker than a standard box wrench. Everything else is too thick. I hit it with PB Blaster and will tackle again tomorrow. I still have the disadvantage of working on my back, but it could be worse.

Those crank pulley bolts are why I have a giant 1/2 inch hammer style impact gun. Try interlocking two wrenches together for more leverage on that tensioner.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Ok. Oh, there was a lot of coolant when I removed the intake. I mean sopping wet.
That is confirmation of the head gasket issue.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I also found oil in 3 of the spark plug wells. What a mess. There is oil on every square in of this engine. I think I should replace the crank and balancer seals too.
That is a good plan. Cam seal too
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Will do can once I get the assembly off. I need to buy a cheap seal puller. When putting in seals a little grease on the inside and outside or oil? Will seat with socket.
You can pull the seals out with a screwdriver to pull them out
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Oil or grease coating when installing?
Use oil on the sealing surface not on the purr perimeter.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Which part is the sealing surface. I haven't pulled one to see. I'm assuming the oil pump has a couple of seals and it's just a remove and replace? Oh, I found there is a bolt missing. The bolt which holds the timing belt tensioner just to the left of the tensioner and near the larger of the two springs is missing in action. Oh, I got the tensioner nut off with the double wrench trick. It was really tight.

The sealing surface is the inside lip of the circular seals. It is the part that seals around the rotating shaft.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Oil pump seal the same or o-rings? Oh, I want to go ahead and add a little bonus for all this advice. I think I've been asking more than the standard fee would cover. If I add it now, does it end the questioning or do we forge ahead?

Yes, that seal is the same. And no any ratings along the way will not end our discussion, it can keep continuing as long as we need to.
Ivan, ASE Certified Master Technician
Category: Toyota
Satisfied Customers: 4871
Experience: Toyota Expert,ASE Master Tech w/ 20+ yrs in the field. Self employed for 9 years. AUTOLAB radio show
Ivan and 4 other Toyota Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Am I looking at this correctly? I see two seals (#25 and 26). This diagram isn't the clearest for me. They don't look like they go behind the sprocket.


http://www.hondapartscheap.com/parts-catalog/honda/accord-sedan/1995/lx/4-speed-automatic/engine/oil-pump-oil-strainer


 

They both show as oil seals, 25 looks like the crank seal, and 26 looks like the oil pump seal
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Ahhhh. That makes sense. I was looking for the crankshaft seal under the crankshaft heading and it wasn't there. Now this looks better.

The oil pump seal is a smaller seal so I think that is the way it lays out.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I'm going all Honda parts for this too. I can get OEM from a place in CA. or another place in CT. I think is where it is. Hondapartscheap.com is in CA. and Majestic Honda is up north near you.

Either place should be a good source for the parts. You can't go wrong with the Honda parts.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I'm also going to change the oil pan gasket. Fel Pro or OEM? There is oil all over this engine including the bottom and firewall side.

I would go with Felpro. Many times Felpro will be better than OEM.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Ivan, when I do the oil pan do I need to do anything with the oil pump seals on the side (you can't do one without the other being involved)? I'm assuming all I have to do is remove the dust shield for the tran seal and remove the bizillion bolts holding the pan on.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Ivan, I looked again and kind of answered my own question. If I want to remove the pump I have to remove several of the oil pan bolts. If I remove the oil pump pulley only then it is only about 3 bolts. I assume I should only replace the oil seal for the pulley. There is a bit of oil there which means it did leak at some point. The cam shaft pulley had leaked big time. That's probably why there is so much oil down the side of the engine on that side. Can't see it unless you remove the cover. Now for the big news. Head is off. Took a cheater and 1/2" breaker. Really tight. Looks like the leak was in cylinder 3 the most and some in 4. I could go swimming in cylinder 3. There is a little oil there if you can blow it up. I'm guessing this is from the natural lubrication and the leaking seal above the cylinder from the cam assembly. They did use Honda belts at least. Intake manifold ports are really dirty. Suprisingly, the gasket didn't look all that bad. Photos to follow.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

You don't have to do anything special with the oil pan. You aren't removing the oil pump, just the oil seal. I see the pics. That makes sense. The bright side of things, coolant is a great decarbonizer. You can do the front crank seal. You cannot do the rear crank seal without removing the transmission.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

That amount of oil in the cylinder isn't a problem? I just checked the bottom of the head with a straightedge and it seems level. No detectable warpage.

The oil could be due to valve guides. I would still have the head checked. I just don't like chancing a problem by bypassing that step. Let them do the valve seals at the same time. A lot of the oil tends to come from disassembly. The carbon in the intake is just 200000 miles of buildup. Do the best you can cleaning it up.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

The head will be checked regardless. I've gotten this far and won't get cheap. Should I use some throttle body cleaner and and clean it the best I can? Should I remove the injectors before doing this?

Yes, use that or carb cleaner. You don't have to touch the injectors, you will be ok
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

One of the bolts on the engine mount was stripped-the top back one behind the bolt which is a post. It's probably a grade 5. I figure if I get another grade 5 slightly longer and a slightly smaller diameter I can add a split washer and nut. Cheaper than a new engine mount.

Yes that would work.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I'm making my parts list. I'll choose either the CA or CT folks. I'll have to ask them a few questions like does the gasket come with the water pump as a kit, etc. so I don't duplicate things. I still have to take the cam assembly off.

It is always worth asking what else is needed to do this job.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I was just looking at prices and the rubber gaskets for the 3 timing belt covers amount to 40 bucks. Are they that necessary? I'm replacing all three plastic sections--the top and middle one due to bolt problem I had. The bottom one was scored pretty badly by the crank pulley and had a hole in it.

Are any of the old ones salvageable?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Most are missing altogether.

If you are replacing the covers, its a good idea. Those seals keep everything away from the timing belt. The car will function fine without them, but you won't have that isolation protection in the event of something out of the ordinary.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK. I'm right about 500 bucks for parts at this point. That's not including shipping.

That sounds about right. You don't need those seals. However, without them, besides the protection, the covers may not be totally secure. They may give enough crush to hold the covers in place as you tighten the bolts. That may not be total reality, but worth keeping in mind just in case.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I forgot to send the picture of the valve side. Cylinder 1 is on the left. Don't know if this is normal or abnormal. Cylinder two valves are out just a bit. and it's still at TDC.

Is the camshaft still bolted into the head?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.


Yes.

My suspicion is that those valves are bent. If the motor hydrolocked, that could be enough to bend them.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I was a little suspicious because everything was a TDC and they shoud be flush. I presume they would replace those during the trip to the shop.

Yes, they will fix the valve guides too, which get damaged when the valve bend
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

How would the valves become hydroblocked? Overheating? Clogged ports? Maybe someone didn't have it TDC on the last belt change or valves not adjusted correctly?

A cylinder full of coolant. A liquid doesn't compress so weaker things will bend
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Sorry, forgot about my physics from high school. So long ago.....The cylinder 1 and 2 are the lightest. Those are the exhaust valves right? In the photo cylinder 1 is on the right.

Right, the exhaust valves are white
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Indicative of an issue or just normal wear and tear?

Normal wear and rear
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Thanks.

You are very welcome
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

When I remove the cam assembly will the protruding valves stress it on that side? Just remove the bolts from the outside in? There are 14.

If the camshaft is still in place, that is what is holding the valves open. If they stay open, with the cam removed, then they are bent. Slowly loosen the caps on the cam from the outside in. Keep loosening in stages until the tension is completely off. See what happens to the valves then.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Update time. I got the assembly off with a minimum of hassle. It was difficult to remove the spark plug side and I had to use a padded screwdriver and gently pry. The gaskets under the assembly stayed intact, but are probably brittle. I haven't removed them yet. The valves seated when I removed everything. Maybe someone adjusted the valves incorrectly (too tight)?? I'm looking for a shop now. NAPA, CarQuest, or a performance place I learned about today. Do they routinely chase the spark plug threads?

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Nice job! Just tell the machine shop to check the holes and install inserts where necessary. Forgive sny delays. One of my dogs ate our couch. I'm sewing it up so my wife doesn't shoot him
Customer: replied 3 years ago.


Why would the valves stick out? I had everything at TDC.

Because only cylinder 1 is TDC. The other cylinders are in different phases of combustion and valves may be open at those times.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I didn't hear any gunshots, so your dog must still be alive....I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Done, the equivalent of closing a wound with 400 stitches. If he does it again, I can't protect him...
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I played with the cam assembly gaskets and cam seal tonight. The cam gaskets (o rings) were so bad you could snap them like soda crackers. The cam seal was very easy to remove and was rock hard. Guess where the two major areas of oil leakage were. I'm taking the head in tomorrow. I called today and the estimate is about 250 dollars. Machining, checking valves and seats, pressure test, and cleaning. He'll check the threads also.

Very fair and good pricing. You said it, if the seal can't flex, it can't seal.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I'll work on the oil pan gasket Saturday. Got my Fel Pro kit and Permatex RTV (black). Where do I put the RTV? Chilton's said put it in the corner where the crank is and I think Haynes said a thin layer on all mating surfaces--block and oil pan.

If you look from the bottom, you will see seams where covers mate to the crankcase. A small blob at those points. I also would put a skim coating on both sides of the gasket, or the flange on the pan, then the top of the gasket.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I remember seeing one gasket listed as "leakless". Is that one that doesn't requre RTV due to its' design or just a marketing ploy?

That may be a silicone based gasket and worth looking at. I just put one on a v8 chevy engine that used to use 4 pieces. The 1 piece gasket seals much better and goes on dry, with silicone just in those seam areas.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK, I just have to remember where I saw it. Dog still alive or walking with a limp?

I did a good job sewing, so he is alive and owes me big. I am exercising him before I leave for work so I hope tiring him out will ease the destructive behavior
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

It's sort of like being Sgt. Schultz from Hogan's Heros. I know nothing, I see nothing...........

I loved that show!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Would it be acceptable to use this Dayco kit? It would save me a ton of money. I've always thought Gates and Dayco were pretty reliable. The Honda tensioners alone will be 100 bucks whereas the Dayco or Gates about 75 bucks (not including my discount of 20%).

Yes, you can certainly use that Dayco kit. It is quality and comes with the necessary components.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Just an FYI, the Dayco kit is 125 bucks at Advance and 64 at RockAuto (the identical kit)! Pays to shop around. I decided to replace the o-ring in the oil control orifice also. I just happened to see it on the parts diagram. The only issue right now is trying to locate the timing covers and gaskets as a kit. Dorman makes several, but they all say for the California emission cars. It must have something to do with the bottom cover design. I also looked for replacement motor mounts (the one near the timing belt cover) is the one that went south on me. Even though they look similar, they aren't the same. Mine has a stud in one of the positions and another is threaded. The aftermarket do not have this.

Good find and hopefully you can find a wholesale supplier for the OEM Honda parts for the remainder of the stuff.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Just found the Gates equivalent for about 20 bucks more. Pictures can be deceiving though. The RockAuto photo for the Gates shows the belts, pump, pump gasket, two tensioners, and both springs. The more I look it seems that is incorrect. It probably has the belts, pump, and tensioners. What to do, what to do. Gates pretty much equivalent to Dayco or vice versa?

Get the part numbers and do as much surfing as you can to verify if either set is correct.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I put out an email to Gates just now and will call Dayco on Tuesday (something about the email not working correctly for the moment).

Cool, let me know what they tell you.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Can you help me identify this sensor It's the one just behind the oil orifice I popped out in the center of the block. I can't seem to locate it on the parts diagram. It doesn't make contact with the coolant in the sleeve around the piston as far as I can tell.

Give me a proximity in that picture, I am having a hard time isolating the sensor in question.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

It's screwed into the back of the block and beneath the intake manifold. I have the oil orifice on the back surface of the the block popped up as a reference. You can just see the black o ring on the popped up orifice in the middle of the block on the back. Just over the edge toward the firewall is the sensor which sticks out horizontally. There is a molded black cover on the sensor.

That looks like the oil pressure sending unit.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

That's what I'm thinking since the open hole in front of the orifice has oil in it as far as I can tell. There is oil all over the place back there. I'm wondering if an o ring has hardened.

if you find oil at the electrical connector, its bad, replace it too
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I found it. It was under engine wiring harness. It isn't located near the block on the photos. It's on the end of the wiring harness.


http://www.hondapartscheap.com/parts-catalog/honda/accord-sedan/1995/lx/4-speed-automatic/engine/engine-wire-harness-clamp

Yup, number 12! At least it is cheap, all considering...
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I found a BWD for 10 bucks at Advance. I didn't spy an o ring anywhere when I removed it.

It may not have one. Most of the times they are pipe thread.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I'll wrap it with a small amount of Teflon plumber's tape.

That is all that you would need. Some of those sending units do indeed have an o-ring, but I don't think that one will.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

How should I clean the carbon off the pistons?


 

Purchase a bottle of Seafoam and pour it into the cylinders. Let it soak. You can scrub with a little brass brush then spray it clean with carburetor cleaner.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Lucky me, I have all that. I'll be looking at spark plugs next. I'll probably get Denso or NGK platinum. These I think are middle of the road without going overboard on iridium.

Yes, either of those options is a good deal. If the car didn't come with Iridiums, then there is no reason to go that way.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Running out to get some parts. Does it use the 170 or 180 degree thermostat?

If 180 is stock, go with that.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I think it is stock at 180. I'm going to replace the o rings on the water pipe on the back of the intake manifold--the one that runs from the tstat to the water pump. I figure I'm there and it would be my luck it would leak after getting everything together. Real pistol to get to once I have reassembled. One bolt holds it in place from underneath. What's the price of a couple of o rings as compared to the hassle of having to tear it down later. Probably original too.

I totally agree!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I'm probably going to pull the oil pump faceplate and sprocket tonight. Do I use any RTV? I do have the new gasket which is similar to the water pump gasket. Coat the new gasket with clean motor oil?
I would use silicone, but a very skim coat, unless the gasket could be installed dry and seal
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Got the oil pump gear off. Gasket was hard as a rock and broke easily, again much like a saltine cracker. I'm supposing that I didn't need to place the bolt in the chamber in the rear when I did this. Once I get it back together don't I spin it a few times and it falls into to place by balancing? That's just to keep it in place during the belt application? I'll run the gasket through my fingers with some clean oil before putting it in the groove. Do you think I need to apply some Permatex black to the mating surfaces? There's an oil passage on the bottom of the photo with the gear (a little oil is left). There was no sealant when I took it off, just the gasket. Can pick up my head tomorrow. Around 258 bucks. I am going to let him put the cam and rocker assembly on for me. Saves me a bit of trouble.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

It should drop back into place. What I would do, is if you haven't moved anything, try to index the gear teeth. I do not believe it matters, but it is worth noting if you haven't lost its reference yet. You should be able to install the gasket dry.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK, I pretty much have it in the same position as when I pulled it off. I believe the lower timing mark on the gear balances out to the bottom mark which is actually at the 5 o'clock position. Eric the Car Guy has a good video and he showed the one he was repairing was actually not in the correct position from a previous repair. He rolled it a couple of times to show how it would balance itself naturally with minimal adjustment.

That sounds like a good plan. It makes sense that it eventually would have the teeth come together as they rotated.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I started using the Seafoam on the cylinder heads. It will take a little scrubbing with a shop rag saturated with it, but a little elbow grease is what they need. How should I scrape the gasket remnants off the surface without scratching the head mating surfaces?

Use a razor blade. You can also use a scotch brite pad, try to keep the debris out of the motor and blow out the perimeter of the pistons with air when you are done.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK. I finished ordering all my parts today. Hopefully, they will all be here by the end of the week. Oh, the Honda head gasket said "leakless" in its verbiage. Do I still use the High-Tack? I think I got the right stuff--it's purple and has an applicator brush.

Do you mean head gasket or oil pan gasket?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Head gasket. The other expert recommended it before you were able to pick up my question.

Follow the instruction that come with it. You will usually install it dry unless it is a metal layered gasket. That would entail coating it. Follow the details that come with the gasket.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK.

Let me know what it says after you get it.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

In the infamous words of Astro from The Jetsons, "Rut roh, George". Hit a snag. Camshaft lobes and rocker arms are scored pretty significantly. Bad luck. Looking for used ones now.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Holy moly! I got the oil pan off. I had to remove another section of exhaust down to the converter. This is not pleasant while on your back looking up. Trying to hold a nut and operate the impact with the other hand in a cramped space is enough to make one drink. The oil residue in the pan was really bad....can we say Hershey's Syrup...........I'm surprised at this because this was my sister-in-laws car and she was always good at keeping it maintained. I've only had one thing worse and it was my girlfriend's mom's car back in the early 80's. It was a cheap Subaru and I cleaned the muck out of its valves. It was shear parafin. I don't see how it even circulated any oil.

Wow, how scored? Unusable scored? Ick on the oil
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Yep, unusable scored. The shop doing the work for me cleaned it overnight and saw the scoring on the cam lobes and rockers. If I hadn't taken it in and had him clean everything I would not have seen it. He's looking for a used cam and assembly. To buy the cam and rockers it would be over 500 dollars new. I saw a place on eBay that would sell the head and rocker remanufactured for about 270 dollars. Free shipping. Seller has excellent ratings. Had I seen the scoring I would have bought that unit on eBay and trashed the current one. On the other hand, I do have a 258 dollar paperweight now.

That would have been heart breaking to have put it back together with a problem that would have surfaced. Hopefully he will find used parts for you.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

The oil pan gasket removal was a bear. Took 45 minutes of slicing with a razor blade. Didn't lose any fingers doing that either. I think it was original. The adhesive holding it on was obviously thin and evenly distributed. Thick rubber gasket. Didn't look like Permatex. Hondabond?

Most likely it was gray?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Yep, a light gray. Look factory installed and heavy duty the gasket was. What's the best way to dissolve the remainder?

A little carburetor cleaner and a razor blade will work well. You can use a scotch brite pad to get the residual off.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Thanks, XXXXX XXXXX scraping tomorrow.

You are welcome! Good luck!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I was looking at the breakdown of the oil pump. Do you think there is any reason I should remove the oil screen and check it?

I think under the circumstances, it is a very good idea.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

What about the oil pump itself? Just the screen?

Since you have it open, you can see the gears and the condition. Look for scoring in there too. If it looks clean there, just the screen. You most likely can clean it and not replace it.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Good thing I got the kit with all the gaskets and o rings for this. I didn't hear back from my guy doing the head cylinder today. Probably still looking for the camshaft and rockers. I may end up buying the whole shebang from a place in California for 279 bucks (including the head). It's off eBay and they have nothing but positive ratings.

What you do is buy that kit, and ebay your original head. Maybe you can recoup some money.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Yep, otherwise it's a nice paperweight.
Cylinder heads make great door stops
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Ivan, my parts from Honda came today. No directions with the head gasket. It's a 3 piece unit--3 sheets of aluminum with a pressed sort of copper ring on two corners. Got the new o ring for the oil orifice. Look at the new one as compared to the old one still on the orifice. Odd. Old one is really flat.

That is the results of being in one place for a long time!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Went by a salvage yard today looking for a used camshaft and rocker assembly. I did find a few possibilities. I have the F22B2 engine. I did see some F22A1 engines that look similar, but I don't know for sure that the camshaft and assembly are interchangeable. I do know the VTEC can't be used in my case. I believe it has an extra cam lobe.

Sorry about the delay. No the parts are not interchangeable. Your engine is more powerful that the F22A1. About 30 horsepower difference, so the ECU tuning, camshaft profiling, etc. will be more aggressive on yours.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I was looking at the parts list on hondapartscheap.com and did notice the camshaft part number is XXXXX same for 94-97. One of the cars in the yard still had the valve cover intact. Probably my best bet. Some others had superficial rust I could wipe off. One looked pitted.
94-97 are the same engine so if it is usable I would agree to grab it. You may be able to clean up the lobes with crocus cloth
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Got my oil screen off. Didn't look too bad. A little particulate material on the screen. Soaking it in parts cleaner until tomorrow.
Nice, that means the motor should be healthy elsewhere inside.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Got the oil pan clean. Took forever to get that gasket scraped off. Had to be original. Too nicely done to be aftermarket. Took a few razor blades and elbow grease. The only place I put the Permatex is on the block where the curve of the shaft meets flat aspect of the block?
Good and yes, that gray stuff is tough to clean off.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I'm supposing the design means you only use a dab in those corners. The rest seals itself.
Yes, when you have a seam that is where a little extra help is needed to seal. The straight flat area seal fine without the silicone.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Thanks. Be working on that tomorrow.
You are welcome. Keep me posted. I'll get back to you as soon as I log on.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Am I OK to use the green Scotch Brite pad on the piston heads also? I've used it on the cylinder mating surface.

Yes, just blow out all the debris with air after.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK, I just want to make sure I don't gouge or scratch. It works better with the SeaFoam to get the carbon off things. Oil screen is shiny and clean. No muck to be seen there. Oil pan is all degreased. May put that all together in the next couple of days. I was looking at the new head gasket. There is no UP written anywhere. The main difference is if one side is up then the aluminum blocks the oil orifice in the center back and if it's the other way it is open to the cylinder head. If my photo from when I took it off is correct, then the aluminum blocks the oil orifice where the low pressure switch is.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

The gasket does not appear symmetrical, so it should really only go on one way? Right?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

If I flip it from top to bottom that's the difference in the two photos. One of the holes in the center and at the bottom in the first photo is blocked by the second of the three sheets of aluminum. At the top of the photo the middle outermost hole at the opposite side is open. It's hard to tell in the first photo, but the edges around the each of the holes is pressed slightly toward you whereas the second photo there are pressed slightly away from you since it is flipped.

My thought is the one that has definitive rings around the pistons is the side facing the block, and the side that is primarily black, faces the head. Does it seem to work ok if you position it that way?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Well, I got my answer about the head gasket. I picked up my cylinder head today and the guy told me you can only put it on one way. The two dowels fit only in the holes at each end of the block on the firewall side. You can only place the head gasket one way since the holes in the gasket are slightly larger in diameter on one side than the ones opposite them. Subtle, but it's true. You can't place the dowels or head gasket in incorrectly due to this design. As Sherlock Holmes says, "You see, but do not observe". My photos should be turned 180 degrees left or right. The black side would be the one that is up.

That is what I thought. Usually they go on in one direction only. The area that faces the pistons usually has an area that is very definitive in how the gasket seals around the cylinder.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

As I put things back together what do I do with the exposed cylinder sleeves on 2 and 3? Do I wet my finger with some oil and moisten the sleeve or just leave it dry?

If you want wipe a coating of oil over the surface.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I'll hit the boneyard Saturday to look for the camshaft and rocker arm assembly.

I hope you find one. There has to be one somewhere.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

How does this look? The cams are spotless, but the area of the cam that fits into the journals is a little iffy? I can't really feel scratches if I run my fingernail over them. Go or no go?

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Polish it with some crocus cloth. Shine up the lobes and I would use it. Just clean it some, I don't think you have to get it completely flawless.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

What is crocus cloth. Can't say I'm familiar with that. Where would I purchase it?

Here is a little description of it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocus_cloth

Here is an amazon listing, but you should be able to find smaller quantities as you search.

http://www.amazon.com/Crocus-Cloth-Sheets-Pack-50/dp/B0006M2SQQ
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Found some 1000 grit 3M on eBay. Sound about right for the grit?

Sounds very good. You will be able to finely polish the lobes with that stuff. It is very handy
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Thanks. I'll order some. It was about 8 bucks for more than I would need, but I'd rather have too much than not enough.

You will find it to be very handy just to have it if you need it again. Anything metal can be polished with that stuff.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I've hit a bit of a snag. I was doing a dry fit on the rear balancer sprocket and I can't get it to mate with the oil pump surface. I've added a little grease to the two posts and no luck. I tried a little silicone spray and no luck. I've jiggled and tried to get it to slide on and it just doesn't want to slide and meet face to face. Any tips?

Can you shoot me a picture. I am trying to find something to give me some reference but I haven't found anything yet.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

The site is having issues tonight and says the engineers are working on it. I'll send a photo tomorrow.

ok sounds good
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I forgot about my Dropbox account. Hold on and I'll send the link.

Cool
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46475340/IMG_3688.JPG

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Here's another. Is it such a tight fit I need to tap the outer casing with a plastic hammer?


 


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46475340/IMG_3690.JPG

If you pull the gears out, will the cover seat?
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I didn't try pulling the gears out a little bit. It seemed to mesh pretty well until that last 1/4". It feels like the posts or dowels are a tight fit.

Try this, see if you can turn the motor a tinge and see if that allows the cover to smack into place.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK, I'll try that tomorrow night after work.

I am thinking that may get the gears to pull in and seat that last little bit.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I had another thought on my to work just a while ago. I need to measure the two dowels length and compare them to the depth of the holes in the gear assembly. If the exposed length is longer than the depth of the holes in the assembly I'll know they got pulled out a little bit when I removed the gearing.

That makes very good sense
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Well, I got the oil pump gear case cover back on. I had to put a little grease on the inside of the slot where the dowels would ride. The tolerance is so close you can't wiggle too much or they stick. I guess it's because the aluminum against aluminum makes it difficult to slide the cover over the dry dowels. I'm working on the front balancer seal now. Does this look far enough in? I've reached the limit of my deep 32 mm socket.


 


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46475340/IMG_3704.JPG

Yes, it does look like it is seated correctly. Little by little...
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Push a little more or leave it where it's at? Look how clean I have the block.....squeaky clean! I'll send some photos. Things are really slow tonight for some reason.


 

Maybe just small taps with a plastic hammer. When you reassemble it will seat itself if need be. Yes things look incredibly clean!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

You know, you have to make the outside as clean as the inside to show how much work you accomplished...
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

When it's all done she gets a steam cleaning.

Nice!
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Working on the water tube behind the engine next. I know there are two o rings, but do I just wiggle and pull the thermostat housing off and then pull the tube off from the back of the water pump? I know there are two hoses near the water pump as well as one bolt that holds the water pipe in place. The black water pipe enters the thermostat housing and I can see the o ring inside the housing.

Yes, it should just wiggle out.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

I'm surprised it's not a more secure system.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Got the rear water pipe out this evening. Wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. Remarkably, the o rings are still pliable. I'll replace those as well as the o ring for the thermostat housing. Any RTV on the RTV housing gasket? I plan to use a little mineral oil on the o rings to make things slide a little easier.

Is it paper or an oring style seal? That pipe gets wedged in place do it can't move. Yes a little silicone spray or your mineral oil will work good getting it seated again.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Rubber o ring style. I'll hit it again tomorrow.
If it is rubber oring style, then put it on dry, just make sure you don't have any deterioration of the aluminum where it sits.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

Any RTV needed on the water pump or water outlet gasket? I've seen different opinions on the water pump gasket.

Here is what I would do. Silicone in the groove of the waterpump, the put the seal into the groove, but then place it in place without anything additional.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.

OK, that sems to be the most prevalent application. When I pulled the water outlet gasket it didn't appear to have any sealant other than the gasket itself.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Ummm, Permatex Black for this? I know it's the most oil resistant. Should I use Permatex Blue? I think it's blue for water pumps.

Yes sir! Use the black, I don't like ultra-black, just use regular black.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Nuts. I used Ultra Black on the oil pump stuff and that's the tube I have now.

No it will be ok. Ultra black works ok, I had some issues on 2 cars that have tainted me for life. Don't worry about it.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Tomorrow I tackle putting the camshaft and rocker assembly back together. I'm going to smear everything with cam lube and carefully reassemble. Once it's on then I'll put the head back on. Any tips?

The key is just vey even tightening in stages.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hit a small snag. I have to order cam lubricant. Any substitute?

Since it is a used cam rather than a new cam, coat everything in oil and you should be good. Pour it liberally on all the contact points.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Would it also be called Engine Assembly Lube?

Yes, that would work fine.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Got the camshaft and rocker arm assembly back together with a little fuss. Used Lucas engine assembly lube. Torqued to specs. Tough to turn the whole thing by hand, but I figure it's lube, not oil and new valve job, etc. The #2 exhaust valves and #3 intake valves are pushed out a bit because of where the cam hits. The sprocket is pointed up since the key is in there which makes a mistake impossible for me.

Nice!
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Sorry, I had to take the wife to dinner. 23rd wedding anniversary. I'll try putting the head gasket on this week. I have the torque sequence listed in my Chilton"s (3 stages). I'll smear a little oil in the #2 and 4 cylinders since they are deep in the sleeve.

Look to see if they want oil coating the head bolts while you are looking.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I think they do. I'll double check though. I'll clean the threads up with my wire wheel on my bench grinder first to get rid of any debris.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I was right. Apply clean oil to the threads and contact face of the bolts.

That lets the bolt move an achieve the proper torque value.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Torque values are 29--51--72 ft. lbs. I saw a video about torquing the head bolts and applying the oil to the contact surface so you could hear the click of the torque wrench at the lower settings. If you didn't, then you might hear the scraping and popping of the bolt against the washer which is quite noisy actually.

Without the oil, it is possible to register a click before you really reach your torque value. The friction can hold it just shy of true torque.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I was getting ready to put the timing belt on and remembered something. I read somewhere that if the belt had writing such as brand, part number, etc. then it should face the engine. Is that true or just an urban legend?

Urban legend. Look at the print on the belt for any rotation instruction. Also, look closely, they usually have marks on the belt to line up with the timing marks on the sprockets.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Got the cylinder head back on too. I just need to find the wire brush wheel for my bench grinder. My wife relocated it. I took some motor oil and spread it on the cylinder walls with my fingers. Cleaned the block surface on more time with cleaner. No sealant was used.

I took a quick look. Didn't see any rotation arrows or timing marks. If I look from the side I see the strands of polyester.
You should be in good shape. This is getting exciting...
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Couldn't respond on my iPhone for some reason. I'll take a closer look tomorrow. I'm guessing manufacturers do this differently as far as marking. Took a break and came to the World Beer Festival here in my neck of the woods (Durham N. C. ). Come on down.
Be right there! :)
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

For some strange reason I can't respond from my iPhone. So, I went looking for a wire wheel for my 8" grinder. The only one I can find is coarse. Would that be too much on cleaning the threads? I could pop on a 6" one for this quick job since it's the only one I could find with a fine rating.

Yes, you can use that smaller wheel. It will work fine.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Good. I was thinking coarse would be a bit much.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Got the head torqued down a little while ago. I tested my new torque wrench on my digital torque converter. I had it at around 72 on the dial (directions called for 72.3) and it would click at around 70 on the converter. Would that be close enough?

Yes you will be completely fine with that. As long as you have consistency between the bolts all will be good.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

My only mistake was not putting oil on the bottom of the washer which rests against the aluminum. I did put it on the top of the washer and bottom of the bolt head. Several of the bolts would creak when torquing. Oh, I did put it on the threads also. Made it hard to hear the click.

It will be ok. Creaking is normal as you torque those style fasteners.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I'll work on the timing and balancer belt next. The Woodruff key on the crankshaft isn't totally vertical, but this is where it stopped when I put it at TDC. I used a screwdriver in the number one cylinder to determine the max height. Is it OK at this angle?

Yes, that looks good. Test fit the timing cover on and line up the mark on the balancer. You should also be able to line up the sprocket marks
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

OK. I have the bolt in the back of the engine to keep the oil pump pulley in place, the timing marks are good on the front balancer shaft, and the marks are good on the cam pulley. I'll work on the tensioners/belts in the next few days.

Cool, its coming along very nicely.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

A little put more work this evening. The timing belt is on except for the camshaft sprocket. The balancer belt is on and the marks are true on the rear and forward balancer. The long bolt in the rear trick really helps hold the rear sprocket. All the marks line up with the tensioners on (no bolt on the tensioner shaft yet). I believe that I put the lower cover on next and put the bolt on the tensioner shaft. If I'm correct I tighten the bolt just enough to make contact with the washer that is over the outer tensioner, not too much to allow the tensioers to move. I believe I then put the outer crankshaft pulley on and torque it down just a bit in case I need to turn the crankshaft. I check the timing marks and if they aren't correct then turn the crankshaft a smidge to make sure all is lined up. Next, I put the belt on the camshaft sprocket by pulling on the tension side to the slack side making sure the two marks on the sprocket are in line with the cylinder head. Next, I move the camshaft 3 teeth counterclockwise and then tighten the tensioner bolt. Does that sound right?

That does sound good. Apply a bit of extra tension by pushing the tensioner pulley against the belt. That will help take some slack out and give you a better picture of how your marks line up.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

When I put the balancer belt on I pushed down on the belt to make sure the marks lined up then I put the outer tensioner on. This way everything lined up once the outer tensioner was on and the last thing to go on was the two spring fulcrum piece. I have just enough tension on the bolt to allow the tensioners movement until I get the belt on the camshaft and make the 3 tooth turn.

That sounds very good.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

If you go beyond 3 teeth does it really make a difference?

You want the marks to rest at their lined up position after tensioning. That rock should be ok, as long as the engine is in the proper position.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

More progress. I have the lower cover back on (frustrating little devil to get back on). I put the tensioner bolt on, but did not tighten it. Left enough space to allow the tensioner to move when putting the timing belt on. I have not pulled the timing belt over the cam sprocket yet. I put the outer crankshaft pulley on and the timing mark is not under the plastic cover sight. It is slightly to the right if you face the belts or closer to the firewall. Do I adjust the crankshaft pulley first? I went ahead and marked the single groove with Liquid Paper so I could see it better. The white paint had faded some time ago. The 3 grooves to the left have faded red paint. It almost looks like if I put the belt on and turn it the 3 teeth counterclockwise the white mark would line up on the sight.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I usually bias it's the tensioner pulls everything to lining up. Sorry about the delay, I've been out with the kids
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Should I go back and realign the timing and balancer marks? I didn't think to realign the crank shaft before putting the belts on?

Set the crank first and work from there
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I need to go back and pop everything off then. I guess the screwdriver trick in the cylinder isn't the most accurate for determining TDC.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Went back to the drawing board. I reset everything. the crank indicator is now vertical to match the small arrow on the block. I was off a tooth or so off on the front and rear balancers, so they now line up. I left the tensioner bolt loose and worked on the timing belt. The two horizontal marks were dead on and I pulled the belt on starting from the front. Crank was rechecked and it was true with the single groove. I moved the camshaft forward 3 teeth by moving the crank counterclockwise. I then tightened the tensioner bolt. Moved the camshaft back to TDC with the two horizontal marks in proper alignment (oh, the cam pulley also has the up arrow in alignment). The TDC timing mark is within the sight on the lower cover. Here's a couple of photos of the timing belt deflection.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Your description sound beautiful! The picture that you posted last did not show up though...
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

There should be two different photos. One with the front slack and the second with the firewall slack.

Only 1 showed up so far.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Here's the other.

That is looking really good.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I'm going to tighten down the crankshaft bolt then turn the engine counterclockwise a few times to make sure everything looks good. I still have the cam lube on everything that I put on a week or so ago. I had also spread some oil on the 2 and 3 cylinder walls. Do I need to adjust the valves since the guy who did the valve job did this?

Did the cams come installed on the head?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

No, I put them on after the head cleaned and machined.

Yes, you will need to adjust the valves. Look in your manual and see if you have the procedure. Let me know if you need it.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I'll check the manual. What should I adjust them to? The manual gives a range. I know the intake and exhaust are different.

The procedure will give you the measurements and the condition for adjustment. It will either be cold or hot, and you will use a feeler gauge to do it. Take a look. It will be very specific.