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MequonCPA
MequonCPA, Certified Public Accountant (CPA)
Category: Tax
Satisfied Customers: 2323
Experience:  CPA, Over 30 yrs experience w/individuals and small businesses. Masters in Tax.
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If am man owned a vacation home with a fair market value of

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If am man owned a vacation home with a fair market value of $300,000 and he deeded it as a gift to his 3 sons together, would it be valued by the IRS for gift tax computations at $300,000 or would it be valued at a lesser amount because the title is tied up between 3 sons. The rationale being that if one son wanted to sale his share, it would be unlikely to bring $100,000. Few people would want to buy an undivided share.
Submitted: 4 years ago.
Category: Tax
Expert:  Marvin,EA replied 4 years ago.
Hello and thanks you for using Just Answer. Your sons basis in the vacation home will be the same basis as your. You must file a gift tax return, Form 709, for each gift to your sons over $13,000 in a calendar year. Do you know the purchased price of the vacation home?
Expert:  MequonCPA replied 4 years ago.

DearCustomer-

 

The value of gift of a partial interest in an asset will, in most cases, be less than the specific percentage times the full fair market value. Gifted assets can have discounts due to lack of marketabilty, control, etc. The donor would need to have an appraisal done advising the appraiser of the interests to be gifted.

 

The recipients' basis would still be the donor's original cost plus any improvements times the percentage interest received.

MequonCPA, Certified Public Accountant (CPA)
Category: Tax
Satisfied Customers: 2323
Experience: CPA, Over 30 yrs experience w/individuals and small businesses. Masters in Tax.
MequonCPA and 4 other Tax Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

So glad you answered. You have quite a bit of experience. Maybe you can elaborate on this. If the man gave the $300,000 vacation home to his 3 sons, but it was encumbered by a life estate which was given to his 2nd wife in the same deed, how would that affect the value of the gift for tax calculations? For example if according to applicable tables for the wife's age, the life estate interest was worth 70% of the total value and the remainder interest was worth 30%, then the wife's gift would be $210,000 and the sons would be $30,000 or $10,000 each. If this gift was made before the life estate would qualify as a marital deduction.... as a QTIP, like before the mid 1980's, then would all 4 gifts be discounted for gift tax since the title would be so tied up? Would the life estate make the gift value even less than before when title went to 3 sons only? Worth bonus.

Expert:  MequonCPA replied 4 years ago.

hotdog -

 

The life estate would not receive any further discount as the spouse has sole possession for her lifetime. The value of her gift is the 70% of the $300K or $210K. The sons' value starts at $30K EACH and then an appropriate discount would be taken. Assuming the spouse's gift did not qualify for a marital deduction, the total gift in this second scenario would be higher. For example, assume the total discount for lack of control/marketablity was 15%. In your first case, the gift to each son would be $85K for total gifts of $255K. The second scenario would have the life estate valued at $210K and each son's interest valued at $25.5K, total gifts of $286.5K.

MequonCPA, Certified Public Accountant (CPA)
Category: Tax
Satisfied Customers: 2323
Experience: CPA, Over 30 yrs experience w/individuals and small businesses. Masters in Tax.
MequonCPA and 4 other Tax Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Thanks. Your example was straightforward. Bet you would make a great teacher or professor. I will send reply, then accept with bonus. May be back later here.
Expert:  MequonCPA replied 4 years ago.

hogdog -

 

Thanks for the accept and the bonus! Funny you should mention that, I was a bust as a college instructor, too much time commitment. However, over the years I have mentored many staff members in a one to one setting.

Customer: replied 4 years ago.

I hope you are still out there. I asked a question about a man who owned a vacation home with a fair market value of $300,000 and he deeded it as a gift to his 3 sons together. If the man purchased the home 10 years ago for $75,000 but the year he gave it away, it was worth $300,000, then is his gift tax based on the $75,000 value or on the $300,000 value? I assumed it was based on the current $300,000 amount, but someone made me think it was based on the $75,000 purchase price. If the gift tax or unified credit calculation uses the $300,000 amount but when the sons sale the property, they have to go back to his $75,000 basis for capital gains tax, looks like they are getting taxed twice on the dollars between 75,000 and 300,000.

Expert:  MequonCPA replied 4 years ago.

Dear hotdog -

 

The gift tax is based on the $300,000 amount. The basis for purposes of sale (and income tax) is $75,000.

 

Hypothetical: Son needs $300K. Dad will make gift to son. He can gift cash or property. (Property value $300K, basis $75K, tax due if sold $35K)

 

1. Dad chooses to gift cash, but needs to sell the property to obtain enough cash. He sells the property, reports the gain, pays the tax, makes the gift and utilizes $300K in unified credit, but his estate has declined by $335K ($300K real estate and $35K in taxes). Son ends up with $300K.

 

2. Now assume he gifts the property and the additional cash son will need if son sells the property. The dad utilizes $335K of unified credit, the recipient pays $35K in tax and has $300K in cash.

 

Dad's overall position is the same. His estate has declined by $335K. Son is in an equal position.

 

 

Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Thank you for your explanation. I may be back. I am sending the reply then accept.
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
I had a problem with the accept. I am trying again to accept. Let me know if you got this sentence please because I am trying a different avenue.
Expert:  MequonCPA replied 4 years ago.

hotdog -

 

Yes I see your two replies.



Edited by Steven Meyerson, CPA on 5/14/2010 at 7:52 PM EST
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
My credit card had run over the limit. I went to credit union and paid so now I am trying again to accept. It may not work till Monday, but I will try to pay again.
Expert:  MequonCPA replied 4 years ago.
No problem, have a good weekend
MequonCPA, Certified Public Accountant (CPA)
Category: Tax
Satisfied Customers: 2323
Experience: CPA, Over 30 yrs experience w/individuals and small businesses. Masters in Tax.
MequonCPA and 4 other Tax Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
Steve, please consider this question: A man purchased 100 acres of land 5 years ago for $200,000. The property was part of a 300 acre dairy farm that had belonged to his uncle. The dairy farm was inherited by the uncle's 2 ganddaughters 50 years ago. The 2 granddaughters sold the 100 acres to their cousin, this man, for the $200,000. If the cousin now has reason to suspect that 35 acres of the 100 acres he purchased was probably omitted from the tax appraisal for the estate taxes 50 years ago, what should he do. Estate taxes were paid on the 300 minus 35 acres, or 265 acres, plus estate taxes on additional property left to the uncle's son. If he is correct and the 35 acres were omitted, then would the IRS put a lien on his 100 acres, on his 35 acres or on the 200 acres the two sisters still own, or on all the property in the estate including the son's? I will send a bonus. An attorney online gave his opinion of these basic facts. His answer was very informative but I wonder if you would see it from a different perspective. I will be out for an hour or two.
Expert:  MequonCPA replied 4 years ago.

hotdog -

 

I looked at the attorney's answer and concur. The estate has been closed for IRS purposes. They had their opportunity for fact finding and assessment. The statute of limitations has run. As an aside, because of the possible omission, the gain on the sale will be higher because the basis is understated.

 

Even if the statute were open and the IRS wanted to assess, the assessment would be issued to the granddaughters, not the property. Failure to pay could cause a levy on any property currently held by them, regardless of what property the assessment related to.

MequonCPA, Certified Public Accountant (CPA)
Category: Tax
Satisfied Customers: 2323
Experience: CPA, Over 30 yrs experience w/individuals and small businesses. Masters in Tax.
MequonCPA and 4 other Tax Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.

I will reply then accept with the bonus. If there was other property in the uncle's estate left to a son, looks like it would be accountable to the IRS before property owned by the two daughters outside the estate, like property received by them from a grandfather or fruits of their own labor. Any thought on that? Also if the statute were open and the IRS wanted to assess, would there be interest and penalties added? Would the tax due be considerably more than it would have originally been? Perhaps double. Thanks again.

Expert:  MequonCPA replied 4 years ago.

hotdog -

 

This is all hypothetical, as the period is closed.

 

All residuary beneficiaries of the estate would be assessed. Initially the assessment would be allocated based on each beneficiary's residuary percentage. If the IRS were unable to collect from one, it is possible that they would attempt collection from the others. The maximum amount that the IRS could collect would be the lesser of the total value of the assets in the residuary bequests or the additional tax due plus interest and penalties. For example if the assets received equaled $10,000 and the tax plus interest and penalties totaled $12,000, the maximum collection would be $10,000.

 

Even if the daughter's had disposed of the real estate immediately after receipt, their other assets could be attached as the proceeds could be in cash or other investments currently held.

 

The tax itself would be at the incremental amount from the original estate value. However, with 50 years of penalties and interest it is likely that the amounts due would be triple, quadruple or more than the original tax amount.

MequonCPA, Certified Public Accountant (CPA)
Category: Tax
Satisfied Customers: 2323
Experience: CPA, Over 30 yrs experience w/individuals and small businesses. Masters in Tax.
MequonCPA and 4 other Tax Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 years ago.
As before your response was A+. My study buddies and I will have to think thru this. I may be back in touch soon but I am going to go ahead and accept. Seems to be a big difference between 10 years & 11 years...whether or not the statute of limitations has played out. Seems a little unfair...but I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere. Thanks again.

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