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Joe
Joe, Marine Mechanic
Category: Small Engine
Satisfied Customers: 7136
Experience:  ASE, electronics, Marine inboards and electronics, automotive drivability, all around repair tech,
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I have a 2003 turf tiger 25 hp kohler. it wont crank with

Customer Question

I have a 2003 scag turf tiger 25 hp kohler. it wont crank with the key.
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Small Engine
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
Welcome to JUST ANSWER small engines, let me try to help you !! Have you located the ignition fuse and checked it? If fuse is good, Have you checked the seat switch and arm switches. they have to be complete for the starter circuit to work. Do you have the Skag wiring diagram? It should show diagram of what each switch should do.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Yea I have check all of them the seat brake and the steering arms
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I can also closed the relay with my finger manually and it will crank
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
So fuses are good? The keyswitch could be bad, have you checked it for output to the starter solenoid? If it sends power to the solenoid, the solenoid can be bad. Keyswitch has to close the solenoid, and if solenoid gets voltage from key, the solenoid is not closing. Relay as in starter relay? Is it getting voltage from the keyswitch?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
yes the fuses are good. and I would think that the solenoid is good cause when I closed the relay it will crank. the switch check good also and I swap the relay. do you think the module would cause and if so how do I check it
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
Does the keyswitch go through the module to get to the relay? I though it went direct from key to relay? I see no test for module.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
can't tell
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
Look at the wire color from key switch and see if it is at relay.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
no wire match with the switch and the relay
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I do have a green wire that go from the switch to relay
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
which it seems like it a green wire coming from the
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I've removed the module and it still crank and run if I manually closed the relay
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
Does the green wire have 12 volts from the switch ? Or is it a ground wire?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
no I have 3.61 volts
the green wire go to the relay and a jumper go from that terminal of the relay to another teriminal
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
sorry it does have 12 volt when the key is in the start position
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
The relay has to have a ground to complete the circuit. Id it gets power, and it does not close, the ground side may be the problem. See if you can identify the ground terminal on the relay and use a jumper wire to ground it, to see if key works the relay.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
which at the second terminal the volts does not increase to 12 v when the key in the start position
yes it getting a good ground
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
?? second terminal? Relay will have diagram on the side of it. There should only be a single relay for starter, and another for pto?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I meant the second terminal on the one relay the wire from the switch to the first terminal on the relay we can call point A jump to another terminal of the same relay we will call point B the power at A is 3.61v at run and 12.22v at start but at point two it stay at 3.61v in run and start position of the switch. should this be what that jumper wire for to keep point B at a low volt,or should it go to 12v to crank
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
and I think that the wire coming from point B is going to the module
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
It has to go to 12 volts for crank. the lower voltage will not engage the solenoid.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
at both point A and B?
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
All the relays and the solenoid are 12 volts, a lesser voltage will not close the relays. Is the 3 volts coming from the module?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I THINK IT COMING FROM THE RELAY TO THE MODULE
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I got 12 volt coming in the relay but not coming out going to the module
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
it a jumper wire like a fuseable link or diode in the jumper wire between A and B
with 12v at A and3.61v at B
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
I doubt it. Not familiar enough with the system. Fusible ink is like a fuse, and would let nothing through if it was bad. And a diode is a check valve, lets power go in one direction only.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
It got me puzzle.lol
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
would it be any reason that the volt drop going to the module or it should be 12v to
Expert:  Curtis B. replied 1 year ago.
I do not know. Let me opt out, and see if anyone else will reply. Please do not respond to me, or it will lock the question to me. Sorry.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Just wondering if you figure anything out
Expert:  Joe replied 1 year ago.
Hello,
Thank you for allowing me to assist you, my name is ***** ***** I will be happy to assist you with your concern today.
I am very sorry that you had to wait so long for an answer.
Page 33 of the parts manual for the Kohler diagram on the wiring: http://www.scag.com/OPManuals/STT/2001sttipl/2001STTIPLcomplete.pdf
You will see that the green to the relay comes directly from the key switch, this is your direct 12v start signal from the switch. If you do NOT have 12v on this wire when cranking have battery load tested and charged and then disconnect it from the relay and see if during cranking you get 12vdc, if not we will check the switch and wire as well as power and ground at the switch, if so that means when connected it's loosing power, if you do have 12v here this means start circuit in terms of key switch is functioning correctly, next on the relay you have a red this is a battery 12vdc hot. Next you have a green/white, this is your 12v out from the relay to the starter this I think you already confirmed good by jumping/manually closing this relay. Last you have a green/black wire, I believe this wire is your ground since no other grounds are shown on the relay which requires a ground, this wire goes directly to the module, this module I believe is what gives or removes ground from the relay based on the sensors, this in short means if you have no ground your either missing a ground, module is bad, wiring problem and or connections dirty etc, or a sensor problem which would prevent module from giving the relay the ground..... this is what I gather from looking at the diagram.
Thus what I have provided is all 4 points/circuits of that relay and where they go to and what to check for, with that info and the diagram I have provided along with a voltmeter, you will be able to diagnose, trace down and make the required repairs to fix the problem and once again allow correct operation of the machine.
Thank you!
- Joe
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Customer: replied 1 year ago.
hey joe, thank for responding to my question i check the wire coming from the module and it about 4.71 v dont matter if i come from the hot side or ground side so i was wondering if you think it the module. that what i'm thinking let me know what you think.
thank you
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
sorry didn't have the ground wire conneted but it still seems that it the module thank for your help i think i;m going to try a new module thank again
Expert:  Joe replied 1 year ago.
Sorry for the delay, for whatever reason i did not receive a notification of your reply, for that I will try and refresh to see if you reply so I can reply faster to you if needed.
Actually, I do not think there should be any voltage per say, yes it should show 12vdc but only as a ground, another wards use positive from battery to pos lead on voltmeter and use neg lead of voltmeter to the module/relay green/black wire, it should show as 12vdc - as a ground.
If not you then have to check the ground input to the module which is the black wire(s), from there the rest are power inputs to the module from the safety switches the module looks at these powers from the switches and commands ground to the relay so long as the switches are activated and not due to a bad switch, incorrect switch position such as seat switch or neutral switch not in position. The switches are fairly easy to check, they are an on/off switch push button, so using a voltmeter red on one side black on the other side each switch should result the same, voltage through in one direction and not in the other, you can also do an continuity test but this is easier as you also confirm voltage at the same time. So what I am having you do is test all switches, upon if they all test good and good grounds on the blacks to the module at that point if no wiring is shorted and good connections thus you have isolated the problem at at this point have eliminated everything except the module then the problem could only be the module. This is if you will, a process of elimination.
Also note that if any voltage is less than it should be that you then need to check wiring, connections and for shorts, make sure to confirm everything I mentioned about, a bad module could be the fault but so could bad wiring or a poor connection, even a poor connection as a sensor/switch.
Again, please be sure to study the wiring diagram I provided and please let me know if you have any questions about it or anything else, I'll be glad to further assist you.
I look forward to hopefully, quickly getting this issue resolved for you.
Thank you,
Joe
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
well i check it all again and i'm getting the 12 V like i should from the green and black wire from the relay and also from the black wire on the module so i;m confused again.
Expert:  Joe replied 1 year ago.
The green/black should be the ground to the relay from the module (confirmed if you have red voltmeter pos cable to a positive and testing the green/black wire as the ground) if so then yes you have good ground from the module to the relay.
The solid blacks on the module are the grounds so that is good as well.
This means please return back to the rest of what I explained because from here you only have 2 or should only have 2 more wires on that relay (2 circuits to a simple relay, one is the switch side which switches the relay to allow power through on the load side via the ground on the switch side, once power is in from the red wire I explained on the relay the last piece of the puzzle is the wire I explained out which is the green/white. Thus on the relay test for red = 12v hot, green 12v hot when cranking, green/black 12v GROUND, and then green/white again 12v hot while cranking and is the first output to the starter solenoid. From there you will be able to find what voltage is lacking.
If you have all then the problem lays between the relay and the starter motor itself, but I doubt that's the case giving how you stated you manually closed the relay.
Which on of the wires is lacking power/ground on the relay following what I explained?
Thanks,
Joe
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
there is 12v on the red but the green and white does not when cranking or not cranking i can press the relay in and get volts on the green and white but the switch will not make it have 12 v
Expert:  Joe replied 1 year ago.
Ok please confirm these exactly, on the relay test for red = 12v hot, green 12v hot when cranking, green/black 12v GROUND, and then green/white again 12v hot while cranking and is the first output to the starter solenoid
If the only one you're missing is the output 12v on the green/white during cranking then this means simply that the relay is bad, yes even though you can close it manually and have it work, it means the switching side is bad and to thus replace the relay which would fix this problem if it is as I have explained.
Thanks again,
Joe
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
i have replace the relay. i get a clicking sound coming from the starter solenoid when i turn the key,but it won;t turn over
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
the clicking sound coming from the fuel cut-off switch on the carb
Expert:  Joe replied 1 year ago.
This now means that the relay is now working and allowing power on the load side to the starter, that's good news. The clicking indicates a problem usually with lack of power, check your battery, not just voltage but have it load tested, if bad replace it or charge if good but needing charge, next check cables and connections.
I am getting confused, now your saying your getting a clicking from the starter solenoid but then say its from the fuel solenoid on the carb..... this all sounds like a power/ground, connection problem.
But you also need to do more testing with a voltmeter. It sounds like you have a bad connection or cable such as the battery power or ground cables, they can be loose, bad connection or actually be bad.
Thanks,
Joe
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
sorry the sound that i thought was the solenoid was the switch on the carb which i think is the cut off but i;m not getting no v out of the relay the green and white wire
Expert:  Joe replied 1 year ago.
Something isn't right here, with a new relay, so long as the wires on the relay are in the correct positions and relay is new, then there is no way for the green/white to not have power out again this is based on all other wires correct 12v voltage and new relay. Otherwise your looking at an electrical issue that you will have to trace down.
Did you or have you already had the battery load tested with a machine?
Checked all connections, grounds, battery cables? Grab the cables and wiggle them, any loose? does it then start?
Then again if you can jump the solenoid and it works that means battery cables are good and isolates the problem to the starter circuit back to everything I explained before for testing.
Again, the wiring diagram provided shows the entire circuit, using a meter to test you should then be able to isolate the problem.
I hate to re-ask you, but all other of the wires on the relay tested with the exact voltage I explained they should?
Can you tell me the part number of your old relay and the new one? (I'm wondering here if this can be as simple as the incorrect relay is being used and thus why only white/green out shows no voltage which would be because the wire locations incorrect as there are different relay internal configurations)
Thanks,
Joe
Thanks,
Joe
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
i done some more checking. i have 3.87 volts coming from the module to the relay there the relay don't get enough v to engage the relay.so that mean i need a new 140.00 module .if you agree let me know. thank wayne
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I don't know how i got 12 v last time i check but it 3.87. so i'm going to try a module just wanted to thank you for your help.it was worth the money thank again wayne
I will let you know if it fix the problem thank wayne
Expert:  Joe replied 1 year ago.
Good morning Wayne,
Sorry for the delay in my reply. The varying voltage could be caused by a bad module and or wiring problems, a good test is with the voltmeter connected to wiggle wires/wiring and tap on the module and see if the voltage changes, which in some cases can help lead to isolating the problem area.
Thanks,
Joe