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Aran
Aran, General Motors
Category: Saturn
Satisfied Customers: 635
Experience:  Saturn Technician
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Saturn ION: Hi Aran - I replaced the secondary air injection

Customer Question

Hi Aran - I replaced the secondary air injection pump and reset the system by pulling the battery - check engine light was off for a good 15 miles, then it came back on (must have gone through a drive cycle)... The OBD code this time is P0411 - secondary air injector incorrect flow.. (Last time it was P2430)... Any thoughts? Thanks... Corbett
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Saturn
Expert:  Aran replied 2 years ago.

Aran :

Hello I'm Aran and I will give you my best effort to try and answer your question completely and to your full satisfaction.

Aran :

So as I recall last time we could NOT get the pump to come on, can you run that test again with the paperclip and see if you can hear the pump come on when you jump the RED to RED/WHITE wire. I am just trying to do some quick diagnosis here for you.

Thanks, Aran

Customer:

Hi - when i took off the original pump water actually came out - fyi

Customer:

i am just reviewing the prior notes for the jump test

Aran :

Basically just pop the relay off and jump the RED TO RED/WHITE wire. Now having said that if there was water, then if it pumped water into the check valve it could have corroded that shut also.

Customer:

ok - let me go attempt to jump - should not take long - i will be back in a bit...

Aran :

sure

Customer:

and the key needs to be turned right?

Customer:

but car not started

Aran :

One moment let me check.

Customer:

ok - my notes indicate such

Aran :

no the key does not need to be on

Customer:

oh ok

Aran :

Also check the fuse number 10 EMISS fuse to make sure it is good.

Customer:

pump starts and fuse looks good

Customer:

i checked the other fuse too from last time

Customer:

looks good

Aran :

So at least we know the pump was bad last time, but I fear the check valve is bad also, one moment and I will pull a diagram for another test.

Customer:

yes, needed a pump regardless

Customer:

ok

Aran :

Ok so the next test is to remove that valve on the back of the motor, turn the key on, and then in that connector there is a BLACK/WHITE WIRE, push a pin in from behind, backprobing that wire and push it in far enough to make contact with the terminal that you cannot see. Then ground one end of a wire and touch the other end to the pin and looking inside of the valve it should open whenever you touch that wire to ground, if it does not open, it is stuck.

Customer:

hahaha

Aran :

So leave the wiring connected to the valve.

Customer:

me do that

Customer:

i cannot get under the car - is that necessary?

Customer:

sorry just to remind you, not that knowledgeable about cars

Aran :

No this valve is on the back of the motor on top.

Full Size Image

Customer:

ok, i know where that is

Aran :

I dont know of any other way to test it than to take it off and physically look at it inside to see if it is moving when grounded.

Aran :

Do you want to check that and then get back with me?

Customer:

i am looking at it now - just trying to figure out how to remove the valve

Customer:

can you explain how to remove the valve - if possible?

Aran :

One moment looking.

Customer:

ok i got it off

Customer:

has a red/pink inside with 6 holes

Aran :

There should be a BLACK/WHITE WIRE

Customer:

it is a bit wet on the inside - fyi

Customer:

i see the bw wire

Aran :

Wet is bad.

Customer:

haha - i figured that

Aran :

So turn the key on, backprobe that wire with a pin or paperclip and then ground one end of the wire and one end to the pin and the valve should open for you to see through it.

Customer:

do you have a picture of what the valve looks like open and closed?

Customer:

i am not seeing where to look for that

Aran :

Let me see

Customer:

and when you say backprobe - do you mean stick the paperclip in the hole that looks to be in front of the bw wire?

Aran :

Stick the paperclip next to the wire and push it inside, there is a terminal in there to make contact with, you will know if you got it in far enough as it will probably spark a small amount.

Also on the valve, I had a different valve in mind, this one you cannot see through, so the only other test is once you ground the wire, try and blow through the valve on the round opening, if you cannot the valve is stuck.

Aran :

Sorry it will spark when you ground the wire, not put the paperclip in.

Customer:

ok - how do i ground the wire?

Aran :

So put the paper clip in, then just get a jumper wire of sort, touch one end to something silver (metal) and the other end to the paperclip and it should spark a tiny bit I would think.

Customer:

sorry Aran - jumper wire?

Aran :

No problem I assume sometimes, so thanks for helping me help you. Do you have a small wire laying around, such as a speaker wire etc. If not is it possible to just manipulate the valve around to touch the paperclip to something metal?

Customer:

that is the thing i think i am missing - i disconnected this

Customer:



Full Size Image

Customer:

i circled the area in red

Customer:

nothing else moves

Customer:

this is stationary

Full Size Image

Aran :

So you are leaving the wiring connected to the valve and not disconnecting it, that way it has power to the valve and you are only grounding the black wire on the control side to open it up

Full Size Image

Aran :

The movement is inside of the valve that you cannot see

Customer:

ok - so i need to reconnect it first?

Customer:

before the backport?

Customer:

i was able to remove the connector at your blue arrow

Aran :

Leave the connector connected, then once you back probe a paperclip along side the black/white wire, we need to somehow touch that paperclip to ground and then try and blow through the valve to see if it will pass air.

If you try to blow through the valve now is it sealed?

Customer:

please point to the valve in your image

Aran :

The valve is the silver thing that the white connector is connected to.

Aran :

I think you just disconnected the wiring only and did not pull the valve off is that correct?

Customer:

i think you are right - just disconnected the wiring - one sec, trying to get you a pic of what i did

Aran :

Is there room if you pull the hose off of the valve on the red arrow to blow through it?

Customer:

Full Size Image

Customer:

you made need to rotate

Customer:

the picture

Aran :

So that is just the connector, that whole valve that it connects to comes off with 3 13mm bolts and disconnecting that rubber hose.

Customer:

the hose that has the quick connect?

Aran :

So in your picture it is the rubber hose on the left

Customer:

Full Size Image

Customer:

the hose with the arrow has what looks to be a quick connect end

Customer:

not a very flexible hose

Customer:

and short

Aran :

That hose has to come off and then these three bolts

Full Size Image

Aran :

I have another idea

Aran :

to confirm the valve is bad

Customer:

all tht needs to come off for the test?

Customer:

or to replace

Aran :

Can you at least get the hose off the valve?

Customer:

trying - not very flexible

Aran :

Once you get the hose off, connect the wiring, back probe the black/white wire, start the car and then when you ground the wire you should hear exhaust coming out of the valve if it opens. You could also pull that hose off of the air pump if that is easier to get to.

Customer:

i squeeze the clip but the hose does not budge

Customer:

the hose that connects to the air pump i replaced?

Customer:

one side connects to the pump the other side looks to connect to the filter box

Customer:

can i just take the hose off where it connects to the filter box and run the test?

Aran :

You can try that, I just do not know if you will hear it that far away from the valve, but its worth a try .

Customer:

ok - let me try this

Customer:

do i need to start the car or just turn the key?

Aran :

If you disconnect it at the filter can you blow through it or is it restricted?

Customer:

i can blow into it

Customer:

not sure what would make restricted

Customer:

make it restricted

Customer:

not putting it in my mouth so not a tight seal

Aran :

Are you blowing into the hose?

Customer:

yes

Aran :

The pump pulls air from there and then pushes through the other hose to the valve on the back of the motor, if the motor is stuck closed it should not allow air to pass, or if it does allow air to pass it is stuck open unless there is a broXXXXX XXXXXne somewhere which I have never seen.

Customer:

ok - so i need to have the car on?

Aran :

no

Customer:

just turn the key?

Customer:

this is what you said

Customer:

Once you get the hose off, connect the wiring, back probe the black/white wire, start the car and then when you ground the wire you should hear exhaust coming out of the valve if it opens. You could also pull that hose off of the air pump if that is easier to get to.

Customer:

start the car

Aran :

Sorry I switched plans, I was not going to start the car but merely blow through the hose for the test.

Customer:

i ran air through the hose between the pump and the filter box when replacing

Customer:

now when i remove the end from the filter box it is still connected to the pump

Customer:

i blow air into the open end

Customer:

do not feel any restriction

Customer:

when i put my around the opening it is restricted

Customer:

the air that is

Customer:

taste great :)

Aran :

Basically that valve is bad, that is the only other thing it can be short of one of the hoses being broken, which I have never seen.

Customer:

the small hose off the valve looks good

Customer:

the one between the filter box and pump, the end connecting to the pump was a bit tattered - i sealed up with electrical tape

Aran :

The intake side or filter side is less important than the exit side

Aran :

I am 99.9 percent sure that valve is bad, I have NEVER had a hose issue before, so basically the only two components are the pump and valve.

Customer:

and there was water in the wiring unit

Customer:

not a lot but it was wet

Customer:

ok - can i get the valve locally or will i be paying a premium?

Aran :

So I am sure the pump pushed the water in through the valve and seized it. One moment and I will find a good price.

Customer:

ok - shipping got me on the pump

Customer:

$30 for shipping

Customer:

probably still cheaper then at dealer or the mechanic

Aran :

Where did you get the last part?

Aran :

Was it GM Parts direct?

Customer: XXX@XXXXXX.XXX)
Customer:

flow cheverolet

Aran :

Ouch retail is 259, this place has it for 133 CLICK HERE but I do not know about shipping costs.

Customer:

description says pipe, is that correct?

Aran :

Yes

Aran :

The part number is XXXXX sometimes you can ebay the part number but I found none, so this was the cheapest option I found.

Customer:

ok appreciate the look - anymore instructions then removing the bolts and tube and then reconnecting?

Aran :

one moment

Aran :

CLICK HERE for the procedure, it is pretty straight forward.

Customer:

ok thx - no need to get under the car for this one, right?

Aran :

correct all from the top. Its not hurting the car to drive it in the mean time until you get the part.

Customer:

ok - the instructions seem straight forward - is it really more then just disconnecting that one host and remove the bolts?

Customer:

and then mount the new valve and connect the hose

Aran :

3 bolts and the hose, thats it

Customer:

not host hose

Customer:

the instructions talk about a manifold

Aran :

The manifold is just pulling off the oil fill cap and then pulling the plastic piece of the motor for better access, it just pulls out once the oil fill cap is taken off.

Customer:

ah ok

Customer:

so really nothing to it

Customer:

well, hope this does it

Customer:

thanks again for the assist

Aran :

Honestly I am confident in it being the issue, the only reason it would set the 411 is basically because the sensor is not getting the pressure from the pump because the valve is corroded shut, very common on these, cobalts and trailblazers.

Customer:

and it wont hurt the new pump?

Aran :

Good thought as a precaution, I would pull the secondary air injection relay in the underhood fuse block just to disable the pump for the time being

Customer:

so that is not the relay i did the jump test?

Customer:

it is actually a fuse?

Aran :

Sorry yes air pump rly fuse, it is a big 40 amp fuse

Customer:

ok - so if i pull it and then do the jump test, i should not hear it go on, right?

Aran :

You wont hear it, that is the main power to the pump.

Customer:

ok and not running it wont cause any harm, right?

Aran :

No harm

Customer:

ok - i will pull the fuse until the check valve is replaced

Customer:

i think we are good for now

Customer:

i will accept now - thank you again!

Aran :

Great, if you run into any snags even after accepting, just post back to this chat and then the followups are free

Take care

Aran

Customer:

ok - thanks for the follow-up tip

Aran, General Motors
Category: Saturn
Satisfied Customers: 635
Experience: Saturn Technician
Aran and 5 other Saturn Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Aran -

 

We did it! Check engine light is off and has stayed off.. Saved me hundreds if not thousands of dollars.. Car has passed inspection as well. Thank you Aran, thank you JustAnswer!

Expert:  Aran replied 2 years ago.
Thanks for the reply and follow-up, its always good to hear success stories. Thanks for your time and patience also.

Aran

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