Saturn Repair Problems? Ask a Mechanic for Answers ASAP
Ken, no dash indicator were flashing. I will check to see if one flashes now that I've replaced the coils. On the day it broke down a dah warning came on concerning the engine on the lower left hand side of the instument panel but it was continuously on, not blinking. The car is not here , but i'll check it tonite and let you know it's current status.
It is not starting right now?
No it doesn't run.
How can I leave the plugs in and take the coil pack out and still test it? I need the plug in the ignition coil in order to energize the spark on the plug ...right? Am I missing somthing?
In order to correctly diagnose a no start condition, battery voltage must be above 11 volts and the engine must be cranking at normal cranking speed (above 200 RPM). Fuel level and fuel quality in the fuel tank should be checked (do not solely rely on the fuel gage for a level reading). When the ignition is turned to crank, the BCM will check the voltage code from the Passlock sensor. If the voltage code is not received within a certain amount of time or does the match the BCM voltage code, the BCM will send a "fuel disable command" to the ECM over the CAN link. The SECURITY telltale will flash and the engine will not be allowed to start. If the BCM recieves the correct voltage code from the Passlock sensor that it has stored in memory, the BCM will send a password XXXXX the controller area network (CAN) link to the ECM. If the ECM password XXXXX not match the BCM password; or if the ECM does not receive a password XXXXX the BCM, it will NOT allow the engine to start, or allow it to start then stall within four seconds. The SECURITY telltale will flash for 10 minutes if the ECM receives no password; an incorrect password XXXXX a fuel disable command. If the password XXXXX the ECM is correct, the engine will operate normally. The password XXXXX XXXXX continuously by the BCM to the ECM during run mode. If the password XXXXX lost or incorrect during the drive cycle, the vehicle will be allowed to start on succeeding ignition cycles without the aid of Passlock and the SECURITY telltale will be On steady. This mode is called fail enable mode.
BCM or ECM DTCs that may cause a no start and should be diagnosed first:
If no crankshaft position (CKP) sensor signal is detected during engine crank when a valid camshaft sensor signal is received, P0335 will set. Fuel and spark will NOT be enabled.
If a MAF circuit fault occurs, the ECM will use the MAP, engine speed and TP angle to calculate engine airflow. The engine will start if this condition occurs.
Important: The ECM uses the MAP sensor to determine barometric pressure for initial starting, as well as for EGR system diagnostics. If this sensor value is skewed, the engine may experience a hard/no start condition. Once the engine is started, the ECM will eventually use a corrected baro value. This may take up to several minutes with the vehicle moving. The MAP value with the ignition On and engine Off should read between 98-102 kPa depending on ground altitude.
Make sure ECT sensor and MAF voltage readings on the scan tool with ignition On, engine Off look normal. MAF voltage should be between 0.8-1.2 volts with ignition On, and the engine Off. The ECT and IAT should be within 2°C (4°F) of each other if the vehicle has been sitting overnight. A skewed sensor reading may cause a hard/no start condition.
Make sure the EGR valve is not stuck open by reading the EGR SENSOR voltage on the scan tool. Normal closed valve readings should be within 0.5-1.0 volts.
Check for a flooded engine.
Important: There is NO clear flood mode on the L81 engine that would cut fuel Off during an engine crank. However, if the accelerator pedal is pressed between 14 and 100% during an engine crank, the throttle blade will open in proportion to the travel of the accelerator pedal. At full accelerator pedal travel during the engine crank, the throttle blade will be open 100%, which may clear a flooded engine.
Make sure the main relay is operating correctly in the UHFB by listening to the relay click when the ignition is turned On.
These ECM fuses in the UHFB will cause a no start if open:
Important: The ECM will only command the fuel pump relay On when the engine is cranking or running.
The ECM controls spark timing and dwell (spark On-time) under all engine running conditions. Each of the two electronic ignition (EI) modules has the ability to charge and discharge each of its three primary coils independently based on ECM control. The ECM uses a high control signal of near 5 volts to charge up the primary coil and a low control signal of near 0 volts to discharge the primary coil. If the primary coil is charged and the control signal is low, current will be induced in the secondary coil and will fire out of its secondary tower.
Important: If DTC P0341, P0342 or P0343 is set, diagnose that DTC first. The ECM will still provide spark and fuel to only one cylinder at a time if the cam sensor signal is not present. Therefore, the engine may or may not start if this condition occurs.
Use the scan tool to perform an IGNITION COIL test for each individual cylinder while listening closely for spark at appropriate ignition coil.
Spark on one cylinder of the 1, 3, 5 bank and spark on another cylinder of the 2, 4, 6 bank indicates that each EI module power and ground circuits are OK.
The ECM controls the fuel pump motor by supplying ground to the fuel pump relay coil circuit. The fuel pump runs continuously whenever the engine is running or cranking. The fuel pump is fed battery voltage whenever the fuel pump relay is turned On. The main relay must be turned On in order for current to flow to the relay coil circuit.
Important: If DTC P0230, P0231, P0232, P0627, P0628 or P0629 is set, diagnose that DTC first.
Important: The ECM will NOT command the fuel pump relay On unless the engine is cranking or running.
Fuel rail pressure: 269-338 kPa (39-49 psi).
Fuel pump relay coil resistance: 70-115 ohms.
Well Ken, I appreciate the technicall information. Although the use of the codes at this point is premature until I buy the reader neccessary to see these codes. Can I buy it ,if so ,how much is it? It seems that it would save us both alot of trouble...
None the less, I checked for the sound of the fuel pump at the rear right side of the car at the gas cap but heard nothing. I depressed the valve at the back of the engine over the rear intake ports.) It looks like a tire valve)it did nothing until the engine was actually turned over, then it shot out. I tried to check the spark from the coil but a spring pushes the screwdriver out and a plug only stays over the boot of the coil when the coil pack is screwed down into place. I did press a plug into the boot and depress it against the engines bracket hard enough to try it, there was no spark. I'm relatively sure the battery was charge above 11 volts but if it wasn't could that affect the results of my tests?
My remote access battery has been dead so I unlock with the key instead.
Customers may comment of engine cranking and not starting. Various engine control module (ECM) diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) may be set with or without driveability concerns.
This condition may be caused by the ECM wiring harness becoming chafed at any of following points:
(Refer to illustration on page 2 of this bulletin.)
Repair damaged wires and wrap wiring harness conduit closed with electrical tape.
Important: With wiring used in Saturn vehicles, it is recommended that approved Packard Crimp and Seal Splice Sleeves (or equivalent) be used.
Caution: DO NOT USE A MATCH OR OPEN FLAME TO APPLY HEAT TO SPLICE SLEEVE.
Tighten Tighten nut to 17 N m(13 lb ft)
WIRE SIZE GAGE
.35 .50 .80 22 20 18
1.0 2.0 16 14
3.0 5.0 12 10
Special Tools P/N**
- Salmon -
- Blue -
- Yellow -
* Order through Packard at (1-800-722-5273)
** Order through Saturn Special Tool Catalog. Included with Terminal Repair Kit (SA9138Z)
Wow, worked late again, I check the wiring harness. It's in great condition.It's very taunt but well protected.
I have no spark, fuel pumps to the release valve at the top of the engine when turning it over. I of course have to push on the valve to see this. Can I test the injection to see if it works or test the send to the coils, or is there a way to bypass the passlock sensor to see if it's cutting off the fuel and spark?
I have this weekend to pinpoint the problem without having to buy items I may not even need, so I if theres any way to better narrow this down I would be elated.
By the way, I don't feel $30 is an exceptable payment for your efforts should your help result in a success, so please don't feel I wish to abuse your knowledge and grace by dragging this out,..I'm just to busy to have this problem yet I must fix it soon or my wife will have to continue walking to work. So thanks for your patients.
My wife suggested that you may have mis-interpreted my comment comcerning payment, so to clairify, I'm not paying you enough for your efforts should the help you give me work. You assistance is worth far more then $30. I'll certainly pay the maximum amount , I just don't see how you can survive on so little.
That being said, I still hope to make some headway this weekend,so any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
New news, I got the car started. One of the ignition fuses found in the middle of the fuse block was blown. I put both old Ignition coils back in and they're fine as well. I have to wonder if the crank sensor was truely bad at this point. Saturn told me my front Coil was bad and possibly the back because they tested the front coil possition by putting in a known good coil and it worked, but how? if I got no spark with this fuse blown how did they and my coil works fine so it sounds to me like a scam.
None the less, I drove it halfway home last night (2 miles) and the fuse had blown again. upon replacing it with a 20amp instead of a 15amp ,I made it home without incident. I suspect a higher then normal current drawat that fuse, so what parts are powered through this 15amp fuse? It sits about the middle of the fuse block near 2 spare sockets.
Air Conditioning System
RIGHT I/P BATT
Right Instrument Panel Fuse Block
Powertrain Control Module (2.2L L4), Engine Control Module (3.0L V6), Transaxle Control Module (3.0L V6)
Body Control Module
Body Control Module, Engine Control Module, Cruise Control, ABS
Electronic Ignition System (2.2L L4)
Ignition Coils (3.0L V6)
Fuel Injectors (2.2L L4)
Backup Lamps, Coolant Level Switch
Fuel Pump Relay
Park Neutral Position Switch, Powertrain Control Module
Cruise Control Switch
CONTROLS IGN 1
Cooling Fan Control Module, Powertrain Control Module, Transaxle (2.2L L4), Transaxle Control Module (3.0L V6)
Instrument Cluster, Coolant Level Switch, Air Bag Electronic PRNDL
Body Control Module, Instrument Cluster, Dimmer Switch
Front Park Lamps, Taillamps, Front Marker Lamps, Rear Marker Lamps, License Lamps, Radio Display Lights, I/P Cluster Backlighting, I/P Dimmer, Cigar Lighter Ring, Ashtray Light, PRNDL Light, HVAC Control Switch Backlighting
Hazard Flasher, HBTT (Headlamp HI Beam Indicator), I/P Cluster
Rear Window Defogger
Audio System, On Star (If Equipped)
Audio, Data Link Connector (DLC)
ING 3 (2.2L L4)
Cruise Clutch Switch, Emissions Controls, A/C Relay, Heated Oxygen Sensor, Vehicle Speed Signal Conditioner Module (2.2L L4 engine with manual transaxle and no ABS)
3.0L V6 Engine
Devices A/C Diode
A/C Diode (For Electrical System Protection)
Just wanted to check in and see how it is going? Ken
Is it running? Ken
Hay I hope all is running! Please remember to click " Accepted" or I do not get compensated for helping you. Let me know if you have any more questions! Thank You Ken
Well Ken, as it turns out...I replaced the coils and drove to work on friday 10 miles. On the way back home the car started bucking like a horse, more accurately, like a clogged fuel filter. I parked under Interstate 895 to check it out. I finally desided to go through the tunnell very slowly and made it home with bucking only upon acceleration.
Am I correct in assuming the fuel filter or is this related to my past issues? Also, what should I do to diagnose the present problem and should I use injector cleaner as a precaution?
The service engine soon light stayed on and the change oil soon light came on and off sometimes. Ussually it stays on as I am do for another oil change, but never went on and off as the engine bucked as it did this time.
From a full stop it seem to behave up until it reached 2000rpm in any gear.