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Dr. Norman Brown
Dr. Norman Brown, Marriage Therapist
Category: Relationship
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Experience:  Family Therapist & teacher 35+ yrs; PhD research in couples
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should guy Im attempting to woo see me suck at soccer?

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I am a single straight female and I was browsing ads of straight men in my city on a dating website. I came across the ad of a guy who looked familiar, and I recognized him as this guy I saw at a social group dineout at a restaurant about three years ago, but whom I did not feel any attraction at the time. Well, this time I did feel an attraction. He had a link to his meetup profile on the website (which I think is weird that the dating website would allow linking offsite, but that’s a whole other issue). Anywho, I visit his profile, and it looks like he has signed up to go to a dineout for a different group he belongs to (a meetup for studiers and speakers of his mother tongue, which is not my mother tongue). I sign up so I can take a better look at this guy, because I didn’t sit at the same table as him 3 years ago (so I didn’t get to observe him enough to make a judgement about his dateability 3 years ago, but I did think it was possible he had Asperger’s at the time). I wanted to see if he’d be the type of guy I’d like, since I wouldn’t want to go on a date with a guy who ended up being a total Asperger’s case or who was obnoxious (I’d like to save myself the awkwardness, not to mention save wasting time on a bad date). I watched his body language very carefully at this year’s dineout, and he seemed non-Asperger’s.


In his dating profile he states that the maximum age of a woman he’d accept is the age I currently was when I attended the mother tongue meetup, but I knew that my birthday was coming up in about three weeks, so that I should send him a PM (private message) soon. But, I wanted to do as much reading of nonfiction books about how to increase his receptivity as possible, so I vowed to myself to send him a PM on the night before my birthday. So I originally send him a long letter, but then I think about how I read that it decreases targets’ receptivity to spill one’s guts at the beginning, so I then decided to shorten it to only a couple sentences. I started writing my letter at about 11pm on the day before my birthday, and then on the extremely early morning of my birthday, I click the “send” button at a little after 1am. I think this is somewhat misleading, because while it’s true that when I typed the words “I’m 35” it was still the day before my birthday, whe I clicked the “send” button, it was my birthday, and therefore 36 (I’m not 36 by the way; I’m just trying to maintain my privacy). I also rationalized it by saying that since I was born around 9am, and I sent it at 1am, I was still 35 by that standard, and would not turn 36 until about 8 hours.  Anyway, I notice that the guy had logged in to his meetup mother tongue group at around noon on Saturday, yet I didn’t receive a response from him until around 4pm on Sunday! He invited me to a soccer game. I don’t even know how to play soccer; I just wrote in my PM that he should let me know if he ever wants to chase around a soccer ball with me, because I need the exercise (I’m slightly chubby). I decide to check his personal ad on that dating website to see if he had logged in, since the last time he logged in was about 3 months ago. Lo and behold, the website said that he had last logged in a little before 4pm on Sunday! So, I think he must have seen my personal ad BEFORE he replied to my PM on the meetup site. I am pretty sure he must have seen my ad since I looked at the list of users that viewed me, and there he was, the most recent viewer of my profile (I had never seen him in my “viewed me” list before; this was the first time I saw him there). This has me concerned, because I did not want him to see my personal ad on the dating website. I had purchased a feature from the dating website that allows users to browse other’s profiles invisibly, but I guess this wouldn’t have prevented him from seeing the time I viewed his ad BEFORE I made the purchase (I’m guessing it only makes the viewings I make AFTER the purchase invisible). I am concerned that he now thinks I am not long-term relationship/girlfriend material because I am untrustworthy. I am not upfront with who I am; I was/am trying to hide something from him, because on my ad I wrote that I was an ethnic race I clearly am not, and that I live in a city I clearly don’t live in (at least currently). (I lied about these two things because I thought it would decrease the chance that he would click on my ad). I suppose most sociobiologists would say that the reason why guys don’t want to date gals who willingly lie to them is because it means they could lie about sleeping around with other men and therefore are being cuckolded. I deleted the body of my profile, but I stupidly neglected to delete my answers to the tests and how my personality rates against other members of the dating website. I believe that if he had clicked on those two sections, he would be able to tell it is me, because in the tests section, it shows my results on the Myers-Briggs test and religious orientation test, and I had written in my PM to him what my religion is and what my Myers-Briggs personality type is (it’s a four-letter acronym, and there are only 16 possibilities, in case you are unfamiliar with the Myers-Briggs). My tests page on my dating website profile also referenced the name of a language I am proficient in, which I mentioned at his mother tongue meetup. So, I think that he would be able to figure out that the profile belongs to me, even though the introductory page of my profile says that I am a woman of a different ethnic race living in a different city! So, I hid my ad (I didn’t permanently delete it, but I just “disabled”/”temporarily deleted” it) so that he wouldn’t be able to look at it again, just in case he didn’t save a copy of my ad the first time he looked at it to his computer’s hard drive (or print it out, or take a photo of it with a camera, etc.). In case you are wondering, the reason why I didn’t want him to see my ad is because I was worried that he might reject me prematurely due to something he might read on there; like reject me for a flimsy, frivolous reason. I have read in non-fiction books that it is best not to reveal too much about yourself early in a dating relationship for just this reason. I also suspect that this guy may have a fear of intimacy, and I read that sometimes people with a fear of intimacy can be too picky, and dismiss potential suitors for such minor reasons as eating their peas one at a time instead of shovelling a spoonful in their mouth, or whatever other ridiculous reason that most people wouldn’t consider a dealbreaker. I noticed that he logged in again on Tuesday – this is the last day he logged in (so I think he logged in on Sunday, then Monday, then Tuesday?) I think the reason he stopped logging in after Tuesday is because he noticed that I disabled/hid my ad. So, since he can no longer see my ad, there is no point in him trying to look at it, right? I am wondering if he might be very suspicious of me and think I’ve got something to hide. How can I explain this to him? I asked a psychologist face-to-face a couple days ago, and she told me that the best thing to do would be to just tell him the truth – that I think he might have a fear of intimacy/commitment and that he might be inclined to dismiss me before giving me a chance, and so a way to prevent that would be for me to give him as little info about myself as possible. I asked her if I should bring it up to him that he himself is willing to lie – the surname he has on his social network site is not his real surname, and the dates which he uploaded his photos on his dating website profile are 4 years old, even though he had logged in to his dating profile in April of 2013. She told me that I should not mention this to him, since it is like “tit for tat”, and it could just escalate an argument.


 


I also asked this psychologist what she thinks of me just being a spectator at the soccer meetup he invited me to, instead of participating, since I am unfamiliar with the rules (there are so many! Like 17!) and I don’t want to end up looking very incompetent and like I have a low IQ. I suspect most sociobiologists would say that mothers who have high IQs are better at raising children. I have read that men don’t care much about IQ for one-night-stands, but they do care about IQ when selecting long-term mates, like wives. On his personal ad page he wrote that he thinks intelligence can turn him on a lot, so I think he likes smart women. I told this psychologist that I am probably going to be the only female at this soccer game, and that I will end up looking like the most useless player, but she said that she thinks it would be more of a turn-off if I sat out and just watched as a spectator on the sidelines. Is this true? Which is worse? Me just watching from afar, (and thus him thinking I’m some lazy gal who will never get thin – he wrote on his personal ad site that he prefers average-sized women to thin-women and large-women, but he also wrote that while being obese was a dealbreaker, being slightly overweight was not a dealbreaker. So maybe he’d be willing to date a somewhat overweight gal, but he’d still prefer a slimmer gal?). The reason why I suggested to chase a soccer ball is because I was worried he might have been thinking, “Oh, this girl probably is unwilling to do any exercise, and she is always going to be the same weight she was at the mother tongue dineout”. I wanted him to think that I would be willing to tag along with him when he goes exercising, which he does a lot. I also have read in a non-fiction book that sports are a good date if you want a man to become interested in you, because it gets his heart rate up, and there is a transfer of excitation that can occur (ie. He thinks that the reason his heart is beating so fast is because he is attracted to you, when really it is because he is playing sports, or on a rickety swaying bridge, or watching a scary movie. This is one of the most famous experiments in psychology.). He also loves soccer, and therefore since I’m there, he’d associate his positive feelings with me.


So, I guess my questions are:


-should I play or be a spectator?


-when should l email to explain? Or do you disagree with my psychologist’s advice?


 

Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Relationship
Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.

Dr. Norman Brown :

You've certainly done a lot of homework about catching a mate. I chose the author of the wobbly bridge doctoral dissertation for the doctoral committee on my second doctorate in 1991 when I met him and his wife (who authored "The Highly Sensitive Person" that sounds like you might be, along with myself and my wife) though I had seen him (Art Aron) in a dream 22 months before.

Dr. Norman Brown :

I think angling to manage conditions during your upcoming meeting is 1. possible and 2. quite risky, because you'll get the whole person in your net no matter what you do, and if you provide a false impression of yourself you may engender false expectations and end up with a relationship fundamentally flawed because you interfered with the natural conditions that would enable your target-male to size you up with the same level of natural abilities as you've sized him up.

Dr. Norman Brown :

With that said, if you try to play in the soccer meetup (I don't know what's supposed to happen, but you seem to be saying that you're all going to run around kicking a ball together), and you look embarrassingly clueless and full of mistakes, his excitement emotions are not the only emotions that could get transferred onto you. [The massive problem of Aron's research and all the mainstream psychological research into attraction is that they don't approach with a paradigm of 8 to 10 discrete basic emotions, and excitement and enjoyment are not the only possibilities your target-male could have.] If something you do or don't do is embarrassingly stupid (from the point of view of a soccer afficionado), then your shame-affect (embarrassment) is likely to get intensified, and he would experience reflected shame himself, and either want to get away from you and blame you for being such a klutz and sticking your female self in where you don't belong, or, if you're really lucky, feel responsible for you (with some self-blame, deserved or not, for getting you involved) and wade into the awkward situation to "save" you with his own soccer prowess OR caretaker skills. Either way, that's pretty awkward opening chapter folklore for your relationship. And if you're GOOD at being comfortable with and managing your own embarrassment towards giving him the incentive to "save" you and feel good about himself, then I'd say go for it. But if you're NOT an extravert-- and anybody that ruminates as much in advance as you've done sounds like more of an Introvert and highly sensitive to me--you could put yourself at too much of a disadvantage for further interaction @ that meetup. You could save the day if you're a hilarious self-deprecatory humorist.

Dr. Norman Brown :

Take the Highly Sensitive Person Test online, and lead with your own strengths: research is one, what about artistic, poetic, musical, human-relations, political, psychological,philosophical, intellectual? If he doesn't have your interests and abilities and you're much more sensitive (ie physiologically, emotionally, intellectually and psychologically) than he is, you're going to be disappointed eventually anyway, even if that's AFTER you get to feel like a lesser person because you aren't the soccerbuff you put yourself out to be.

Dr. Norman Brown :

[Of course all relationships are fundamentally flawed in some ways. But my experience has been that if you use psychological tricks like you're trying, or astrology like I did when I first met my wife, or psychic influence (that's been used on me at least twice), you're bending your natural conditions to unfair advantage, and that's going to bite you.]

Dr. Norman Brown :

I assume you're trying to arm yourself with weapons (in this case intellectually acquired) to keep from feeling so vulnerable when you go out to lure a male. But if your target-male is a soccer buff, female vulnerability could be a turn-on too. Since you're not going to have time to become an expert at soccer-ball-bashing, your legs, cleavage and perfume are better attractors to rely on, along with other feminine wiles like playing eye tag, knowing a lot about some topics he brings up (that you're good at, like arguing the battle of the sexes from sociobiological perspectives).

Dr. Norman Brown :

Bottomline, I'd advise watching from close by, leveraging your feminine atractiveness, artistic and social perceptiveness and intelligence, and, if you are highlysensitive (20% or so of us are, not cut out to be warriors) your vulnerability to intense stimulation and crowded situations makes you the kind of woman a man wants to protect and procreate with. Take the test and report your results. And tell me if you're an INTP or something else, as well as what you'd guess your target-male is.

Customer:

Excellent. You are spot-on. I have known I was an HSP ever since I was in my early twenties. I've known I was an introvert ever since I was about 13 years old. I am an INFJ; I score INFJ about 80 percent of the time I do Myers-Briggs tests. I did score INTJ once; a psychologist whom I saw multiple times said that he thought I was INTJ (this was after only meeting me a couple times), then after seeing me a few dozen times he thought INFJ, then several sessions later he said, "Are you sure you're not an INTJ?". Personally I think I'm INFJ. My legs are much chubbier than what my upper body would indicate; many people have told me that the lower half of my body is fatter than my upper half. My ex-boyfriend said that

Customer:

my legs are quite unattractive, but that my upper body is nice and thin. So, I don't think my legs would attract him. Perfume? Don't you mean pheromones? I don't use birth control pills so I don't have to worry so much about my MHC (major histocompatibility complex) attracting the wrong guy. I don't know if our immune systems are similar or not, but on his dating profile he selected the answer "It's very important" to the question of whether a female smells good, so I used anti-perspirant on my armpits.

Customer:

My target male wrote on his ad on the dating website that he tested as INTJ. This was on his ad before I contacted him, so it's not like I asked him what his MBTI was.

Customer:

I think he has social anxiety disorder and AvPD, based on what he has written on several different sites on the internet (so it is likely he is HSP as well). I sat on the grass and just watched the entire time. He showed up at about 2:21pm and left at about 3:25pm. According to the meetup site, the game starts at 2:00pm and ends at 4:00pm. So, he arrived late and left early. Also, I think it is very telling that when he arrived, he did not walk over to where I was sitting, which was near all the backpacks, bicycles, and water bottles of all the other players (the south side of the field). He came walking from the street from the north side (he doesn't have a car and relies on the bus) and put down his backpack on the west side of the soccer field and took off the shirt he was wearing and put on a white shirt (everyone was instructed to bring both a white shirt and a black shirt) and he put on his cleats and shin pads and then started playing. He never came within maybe 50 feet of me (this is just a rough guess of the distance). He never said anything to me or waved at me, but I did see him look in my direction some times. It looked as if he was staring at me while he was changing into his clothes.

Customer:

I will pay you more money, since I know I am typing a lot, but you did ask me whether or not I was INTP, and what I thought my guy is, so that's why I am answering your questions. But I think you are excellent in your analysis and am more than happy to reward your excellent work with my financial generosity.

Dr. Norman Brown :

I'm an INFJ also, tho my F/T scores (Kiersey) are 11/9. YOu have such a powerful intellect that makes you seem like a dominant T. But if you're an INFJ, then your feeling should be extraverted, like mine is. And your inner life should be very rich in ideas, intuitive connections, dreams, artistic & psychological thinking, etc. Teacher/author type.

Dr. Norman Brown :

I'm concerned that you speak about him in diagnoses. If I were viewing a potential romantic interest I would be so enthusiastic about her intellect and her interests and her presence that I wouldn't be attending to limitations. But then again, I can't imagine being encouraged to engage with a person who after inviting me would barely indicate that s/he had noticed me. Do you like to pick up guys who are pretty limited psychologically and try to make them bloom?

Customer:

I have another question: should I click on the "Good To See You!" button in the mass email I got from the meetup website, which is titled, "Stay in touch!", just to let my target-male know that I have not changed my mind about his attractiveness? This is the first time I've seen him play soccer. The only other time I've seen him in person was at the restaurant on June 11th 2013, and then another restaurant 3 years ago, but I doubt he'd remember I was at that restaurant 3 years ago. I'm worried about appearing too aggressive/dominant (as the female psychologist I talked to a few days ago warned me about; she said that I should NOT ask him out on a second date, as I asked him out on the first date. Well, he technically decided on the venue and time, but I was the one who suggested soccer to him. I do know that women are the ones who are the first to send out COVERT/subtle signals, but men do the actual asking, and for a woman to ask it could emasculate the man and make him not want the woman, as the woman will appear dominant and thus the type of woman who would be promiscuous/cheating/cuckolding. At least I think that's the reason a sociobiologist would give for why men don't like dominant women. Should I wait a day or so to see if he clicks the "Good to see you" button on the email that everyone got, or should I do it first?

Customer:

No, I don't think I'm attracted to victims. I don't have co-dependency. I don't have White Knight Syndrome (I borrowed that book from the library once). I am not "The Rescuer" from the chapter by the same name in the book "Red Flags! How to Know You're Dating a Loser" by two male psychologists.

Customer:

I have social anxiety disorder myself. I'm not sure if I qualify for AvPD anymore, because one of the criteria for AvPD is that a person is not willing to involve themselves with others unless certain of being liked, and I took a risk and sent him a PM suggesting we do soccer together even though I didn't know if he liked me or not. So I guess that's why I'm attracted to him; because most of us are attracted to people who remind us of ourselves.

Dr. Norman Brown :

I'm amazed at how much of what I published in my 2000 textbook Love & Intimate Relationships: Journeys of the Heart you know and are attempting to use. I do agree that you can't go too far with making the first moves, but that your subtle signals can't be TOO subtle. I called it "plausibly deniable" attraction signals in my textbook, and they've only gotten more and more heavily denied as cultures get more scared of commitment and divorce. I totally agree with the need to (let/get) the male to make significant moves. I was more HSP than my my first longterm girlfriend in college (final semester of 4th year): she had to keep sitting next to me in 3 out of 6 classes and finally asked me to walk her dog, who wouldn't be allowed in her next class, so I could "pop the question" ("OK, if you'll go out with me.")

Dr. Norman Brown :

Males who don't date much also don't discuss the rules and protocols with each other. I totally DON'T agree with the "promiscuous/cheating/cuckolding" idea. That's only a likely suspicion of a guy when he sees a woman being charmingly friendly plus a little sexy with more than one guy in a gathering. If she "only has eyes for him" and is consistent with her focused attentiveness and flirtation, the really shy guys might feel too intimidated to act, but if she lowers the flirtation temperature and focuses on creating a comfort zone between them, while clearly wanting nothing other than to enjoy him, he'll come around--though it might take him a while to warm up to either the physical attraction (if he hadn't been gazing with sexual interest before) or the emotional safety side (depending on how he achieves that) of his equation.

Dr. Norman Brown :

There are no sure guarantees of success in starting an attraction. I was 40 before I studied my long string of past relationships (6 of 1-9 years & 18 of 1wk to 2 months) and realized that I had almost always (except for 3 in Germany & 2 on board transatlantic ships) approached only women who'd signaled proceptivity, and the downside was that most were not what I really wanted. So I was determined to move first the next time--and the first woman I knew I wanted before she signaled, I also knew within 2 months that I would probably marry, and I did. Luckily she did want me with the same certainty--and that was also because we both knew that our progressed moons were in the house of partnership, and we shared Seriousness, HSP, higher education, & psychodynamic psychotherapy (esp Jungian & neoFreudian, with other satellite modalities less shared). So if you take the risk of making your intentions clear first, the other might decide eventually that you're not quite what he needs--or he might just be incapable of deciding to join his happiness with your happiness (which is what your diagnoses are intimating).

Dr. Norman Brown :

INTJ is what Jung was. The joke label is "Crackpot," because they're typically very sure of the airtight system that they believe ("Mastermind")--just as we INFJs are convinced that others should be as true to their feelings as we think we are. Sure, wait a day. Oh it's so awkward tiptoeing towards love.

Dr. Norman Brown :

Ooops it's past my bedtime. My Unitarian minister's going to talk about I-ching tomorrow, and may be building some of his sermon on the book of lectures I lent him when we men on Wed to begin talking about dreams(Unitarians often do personalized "book reports" as sermons, since it can be very intellectualizing stimulation).

Dr. Norman Brown :

Further on dominant women. Women who have a high need for power (a motivational psychology concept) don't scare men, because they're too smart for that mistake. They aim for who they want and make him feel like king of the roost--just exercising their power behind the scenes. They're just psychologists.

Dr. Norman Brown, Marriage Therapist
Category: Relationship
Satisfied Customers: 839
Experience: Family Therapist & teacher 35+ yrs; PhD research in couples
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Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 12 months ago.
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