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Dr. Norman Brown
Dr. Norman Brown, Marriage Therapist
Category: Relationship
Satisfied Customers: 945
Experience:  Family Therapist & teacher 35+ yrs; PhD research in couples
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hi...I am a 54 years old man.....and I have only loved one

Customer Question

hi...I am a 54 years old man.....and I have only loved one woman in my entire life but that was when I was 22 or 23 years old.....I have moved around a lot and have had several good paying jobs....I have focused on my career and being in another full time relationship was really something that never came up....but this year my thoughts have changed and in March I found my old love and unfortunately she is married. We have been talking and seeing each other and I have learned a lot from her and about her husband.....She is not in a happy complete marriage that most people are in....and when I knew her so many years ago she was a very sinuous and sexual young woman and that hasn't changed....She never had sex with her husband even on there wedding day he's a diabetic that has never taken care of him self so he's has to take so much medicine that he's no longer able to have sex....I have been a diabetic for 14 years and have closely watched my diabetes and have been able to keep it under control so my sex drive hasn't changed either....I have a hard time telling any one that I have a relationship with my old lover....one reason is to protect her and also not to hurt her husband should he ever fine out.....I have a heart for people that have diabetes....I know first hand how hard it is to maintain a decent life style...So this weekend from a text on Saturday morning I had my feeling hurt over something small and I text back that what was just said hurt my feeling....I couldn't call her to clarify what was meant by the comment that started the fighting and arguing which lasted until Sunday night around 6:30pm.....from one comment of my feeling being hurt there was several hours of bad mouthing that I tried to get her to stop with the texting that all she want to do was to keep fighting and arguing over something so small....because her husband has Friday through Sunday off I am not able to ever call her so communicating on those days can be difficult.... Since the arguing and fighting has stopped I have been in deep thought over what I feel a relationship is to me and the weekend brought reality back in my life....I have a difficult time calling what I have a relationship when I have no say and no control over it....I need to have some suggestions to help me end this before it get to far out of control that it ruins anyone life...and I don't want to lead her on either I was to end what ever you call this and if we are to be together again she will have to end her relationship with her husband....I don't any part of that either....I am 54 years old I am no longer a kid....I do love this woman but I want a relationship that is equal for two adults to be in and build together....I don't want it to be one sided and unfair like it is now.....I don't want to argue and fight for 2 days either over something that could have been fixed had I been able to call her to start with....I don't want to have to hide to see her....I want to be able to be anywhere and not be concerned with who sees us together....I want to be able to shout out my window to the world who my love is....I want my partner to come home to me after work....I want a relationship that is fair and equal....and I can't call what I have a relationship because I have no say and no control....to me I have nothing as long as she is married....I need to know if you think I am over thinking what I have experienced being in this what ever you want to call it because it's not a relationship....and because I do love this woman can you suggest something that will be easy for me to tell her and that will help her understand without hurting her feeling that I want something that is real and honest and loving.....because she has shown signs of not thinking with a level head and a lone can lead to other problems....Thank you Vaughn
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Relationship
Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.

Dr. Norman Brown :

Dear vaughn, Your thinking is very clear, and I agree with you, except for one thing: Nobody can love anyone without getting hurt, and getting hurt fairly often. You'll be a lot more prepared for what you intend to do once you accept that you can't avoid hurting her. I could explain in concrete emotional terms why love and hurt must come together, not constantly of course, but inevitably nevertheless. But that's technical. How long have you been carrying on this relationship? And are you sexually active with this woman?

Dr. Norman Brown :

The chances of all 3 of you getting deeply hurt are pretty high, if you keep up your secret affair. And you are right that she has too much power because she has both of you. But are you perhaps Idealizing the love her husband might have for her? or she for him?

Dr. Norman Brown :

To reduce the human suffering that's coming your way, one of the two men has to bow out, and you know that. Are you willing to propose marriage to her in a year or so (trial period, but to show her you're not just having an adventure), IF she will leave and divorce her husband? She has adequate reason, even without ever telling him about you. But she will have to face her own guilt for dumping him after all these years. This will be harder if he's dependent on her, as he might well be if he doesn't take care of himself. And also if they have any children, those children will be hurt by a divorce, even if a later marriage with you is happier and thus healthier for the children. (If they're really never had sex, then they don't have children.)

Customer :

I have had a love affair with this woman since I was 22 or 23 when we first met....we didn't live together then but I would spend 3 or 4 nights a week with her at that time she had a young daughter and she didn't know she was also expecting a 2nd child when we were dating and seeing each other back when we were kids ourselves....when I was 25 or 26 I left her because I had a drug problem and I knew that I should leave her so her kid didn't have to watch me use drugs....I am clean from drugs except for what I need having diabetes....I have only been back with Vickie for 3 months tomorrow and yes we are in a sexual relationship with each other....back when we were younger we both had a high sex drive and even still today we both still have a very active sex dive....vickie knows I would marry her in a heart beat if she was available her current relationship with her husband was a marriage of convenience and not so much as love....they both marred at a much older age and neither could have children....Vickie knew when she married she would never have sex with her husband and at the time she said she thought that it might be her last chance in life to be married again as she put it there wasn't a string on men knocking on her door ask her to marry...so she saw that there was someone asking her and after several times of turning him down she said yes....so I was the last man she has ever had sex with and I am the first man she has had sex with some 28 years later....I just feel because I have no way to call her when things go wrong I have to put up with the craziness if I want to be part of her life again....and because I'm 54 I just don't want the crazy in my life.....I want a relationship that is fair and equal and what I have isn't.....so any suggestion you have that will lessen the hurt for her will be great....I don't care as much about me because I know I will over come this it's just my love for her is so strong I just want to let her go as gently as I can.....vaughn

Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.

I just wrote a whole bunch and lost it all because of the computer system. Very careful and detailed. I'm not sure I can stand rewriting it. So I'll put it in a Word file first so I can't lose it. Make sure you don't let Vicki know you're using this site, because other people can read what we're writing. I so much want to work from my own website so I can safeguard clients' privacy.

I understand that you've had a lot of bouts with guilt through your life, especially when you were involved with addictive drugs. But you are misunderstanding the nature of guilt in this situation now. Guilt is to be avoided when it is Neurotic guilt, but when it is Existential guilt, you need to muster up the courage to accept it.
I will explain.

Neurotic guilt is guilt that someone else has taught you to feel so they can control your actions, even though your actions don't hurt anyone, or if someone is hurt, they are trespassing on your own life boundaries with their expectations. For example, a church makes you feel guilty when you don't come to services; or your mother will worry unnecessarily about you if you do something she doesn't like or feel safe about, and she's also taught you that you must always tell her the truth about what you're doing or you're sinning before God.

But Existential guilt is the natural result of making a free choice that happens to have as one of its consequences that someone will be hurt, even if that someone is yourself. We all have to make many choices in our lives that will or could hurt someone else, or could hurt ourselves. Anyone who ever initiates a breakup with a lover is responsible for hurting that person (if the desire to split up is not mutual); so it's best to accept the guilt for that decision out front and thus show the dumped partner respect. People who don't want to accept their guilt for such a decision either sneakily escape in the dark of night, or pretend that something unavoidable forced them to break up, or (worst) build up an excuse in a negative portrait of the partner as dumb, nasty, evil, crazy, addicted, immature, hyper-possessive, greedy or insatiable, so it will appear to be the partner's fault instead of their own..

Your choice to leave Vicki 28 years ago, when you loved each other, hurt both of you. But you reasoned that it would hurt more if you stayed. So you thought you were choosing to inflict less hurt. Her choice to marry a man she didn't want to marry set them both up for future emotional harm, so she needs to realize her responsibility for that, now that the consequences have come home to roost.

When you told her you were hurt, she realized that she would have to dance on eggshells and still end up hurting both you and her husband. That's the natural result of her having too much power in the triangle relationship. Your honest communication was valuable, because it brought the inevitability of human suffering into consciousness. She couldn't rein in her anger, because she could no longer avoid being aware of her actions' unintended painful consequences.

So I suggest you let her know that you now realize why she was so mad at you, because now you have showed her that she will probably disappoint or hurt either you or her husband occasionally, no matter how hard she tries to do the right thing. So the only thing to do to reduce that mounting suffering is for there to be only one couple: either you and her or him and her.

And because you know where your own happiness lies, and you're pretty sure that she loves you more than she pities and/or loves him, I advise you to propose marriage to her. Not to bow out and hurt both her and yourself just so you can dodge your own guilt feelings. Because your guilt would be existential guilt, because the results of your own free choice will probably hurt her husband AND force Vicki to face her own existential guilt for choosing to marry him when she did and for choosing to divorce him so that she and you can be happy together.

I advise you NOT to tell Vicki that "it's all up to her" what she wants to do, and you'll be "OK with whatever she chooses." Because that's a LIE. You'll be able to dodge your guilt for wanting her now after you chose to leave her 28 years ago. But you won't be happy, and she won't be happy. Tell Vicki instead, that you'll take responsibility for your desire to marry her and never leave her again till death do you part, so it won't be "all her fault" if she agrees with you and chooses to divorce her husband. Then you can brainstorm together about how best to get from where you are now to where you want to be, which is married. If it's helpful, you can even talk to her husband yourself, since YOU are very concerned about showing HIM the respect
that you as a diabetic feel for him as a diabetic-that you don't view him as less worthy of respect than yourself. You can apologize to him, even though you can never make it up to him. And you're NOT responsible for her choosing to marry him, tho you ARE responsible for getting involved with addictive drugs and leaving her decades ago because of that. You can guarantee to respect and guard his right to a relationship with the 2 kids he helped to raise, since he has earned his father-relationship (if
indeed that exists) and you have not.

This may sound far-fetched, but since they were never able to either have sex or conceive children, their post-divorce relationship might develop in a few years into something like a "former brother-in-law/sister-in-law" relationship-though the frequency of contact and closeness of communication might depend on whether both of them could easily move beyond the pain of thwarted partnership-expectations or not. From your own respect for his similarity to you, you might also develop a "brother-in-law" relationship, even separate from and independent of her connection with him.

I'm NOT advising marriage because I think you SHOULD take her as your wife since you love her and she (probably) loves you. I'm not insisting that love SHOULD lead to marriage, though a marriage with lots of love in it motivates a lot more psychospiritual growth from the natural friction of intimate relationship than one without love. And I'm NOT claiming that you don't have a right to choose the losing position, because I've no right to decide that you can't give her up if you want to. But I AM advising marriage because I don't want you to make yourself and her unhappy for years (if you can ever bury yourself in love with someone else to get away from this choice)-just because you don't understand that GUILT is not something you have to avoid if at all possible, so you think that hurting yourself (and Vicki) is preferable to letting you both feel guilty for hurting the man she has never loved. Everybody will have to face existential guilt unless they never make a choice that hurts someone else, and they don't even notice that they're only hurting themselves by not making those difficult decisions. You can't have serial monogamy without these choices and the existential guilt that comes with them.



Dr. Norman Brown, Marriage Therapist
Category: Relationship
Satisfied Customers: 945
Experience: Family Therapist & teacher 35+ yrs; PhD research in couples
Dr. Norman Brown and other Relationship Specialists are ready to help you
Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.
PS. I don't believe you're considering HER desires when you're asking how to leave her most gently, you're just considering YOUR desire to avoid feeling guilty for "messing up her life again!" If you marry her and DON'T EVER LEAVE HER AGAIN, like you did 28 years ago, the "messing up" will last only a year or less. Don't choose the path of separation forever FOR her and for you, ASK her instead, but TELL her what YOU WANT FIRST. Not what you want to avoid ("hurting anyone" cuz that can't be done) but what you want in your heart. That CAN be done.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I will rate you so you can get credit....She knows how much I want to marry her but the I can't do any thing on my end to be married to her....Only she can start the process to divorce her husband....and I can't go on seeing her and phoning her under the current circumstances of how this relationship has to operate. I am extremely happy when we spend the day together or if we meet for dinner or breakfast....but after the day is over I still end up with nothing....And only having the option of texting her when her husband is around makes it hard and misunderstanding are easier to happen when you are un-able to hear the context in the persons voice....and for me sharing her is the hardest thing knowing that she is going home to her husband after work and coming home to me is one of the hardest things for me to deal with....I haven't ended the relationship I just can't be with her physically or face to face and it's not because I don't love her because I do....I have since I was 22....I have been in love with her for 32 years....I just can't deal with the sadness of knowing as long as she stays married I will never have anything, and I'm not happy that I have decided to stop seeing her until there's some hope that there is really some kind of future for me to be married to her....I still talk to her on the phone and I want to support her in her times of need but I need to know that there is something for me in the future and like I said as long as she stays married I have nothing...

Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I do have another question....am I too emotional over her because she is married? and am I taking a healthy approach by stopping the physical part of the relationship and continuing the friendship by speaking to her on the phone when she want to talk to me? I also think because of the way I left her 32 years ago that she has said she forgives for doing...I think that there may be something else like may be a trust issue and that she may not believe me when I ask her to marry me....to me it's a very simple process...If she loves me like she says and not in love with her husband then It seems to me it would be a no brainer to divorce her husband there are no children she has only been married for 4 and 1/2 years and she has only know this guy for a total of 8 years....they have never had sex because he is unwilling to take care of him self and that has allowed him to let the diabetes to run his life instead of keep it under control like I have chosen to do....but I also know that she knows what she has now and may not be willing to take a chance with me because of what I did 32 years ago when I left her....And guilt is a odd thing because of the sadness it creates in one's heart but I do thank you for explaining guilt to me and it has made things a little easier for me to except...I did rate you and gave you a tip as well....

Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.

I hear you dwelling on your hurt and frustration. I have urged you to write to her (email if that's protected) and Propose Marriage, Vow Loyalty Forever, and tell her YOU will take your share of responsibility for breaking up her present marriage, and even talk to her husband when and IF the time is right for that. Most women want to feel protected by their husbands. In CG Jung's famous article about marriage he writes that the husband is the walls of the castle of their common We-ness, and the wife beautifies the interior. Make it clear to her that she will not be going out on a limb to divorce her husband and be responsible for hurting him and thwarting his expectations. Brainstorm with her on how best to do it. MAKE SURE SHE KNOWS THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT AND YOU ARE IN IT TOGETHER.

 

If you're really expecting her to take her own risk without you being very explicit that you are risking marriage FIRST, you might be unconsciously punishing her for holding back so far. And THAT could come back to bite you!

 

And you know what? It's not even true that she HAS TO Make the First Move by initiating divorce with him. YOU could get in touch with him where he works and tell him who you are and what has happened between you and her for 32 years, and that Now you're ready, and YOU WANT HER TO MARRY YOU. You would not have to tell him you've been carrying on in secret. If you do that, then he will probably have to ask her what she wants to do, and then she will CHOOSE YOU, because you have taken the guilt trip away from her and assumed it for yourself.

 

I'm not saying you SHOULD or SHOULDN'T do that, but that you CAN do that. So if she's afraid to assume the burden of guilt for ending their marriage, you can do that for her. If she THEN says to you and to him that she WON'T end their marriage, then you'll know that she doesn't have the courage to say yes to her heart, as you have already done.

 

Because you CAN do that, you CAN also tell her you'll take as much of the responsibility of breaking up their marriage as you can, and that's how you can do it. And you can tell him how you'll support his relationships with her kids too, if indeen he's ever cultivated them.

 

I want you to realize that you're NOT as helpless as you think you are. So you don't have to punish her by making her take the lead in doing a divorce. That would not be EVIL, that act would be Gallant, even NOBLE--since it would also NOT deprive her of her freedom of choice, except that she would no longer have the choice to keep her relationship with you completely SECRET. That secrecy is the worst thing about what's going on now.

 

Gotta go. chew on that.

Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.

I want to point out that I'm not writing these things to make you feel bad, but because 1. one advantage of being an experienced therapist is that I can empathize my way into some of what Vicki is probably feeling as well as what you are feeling, so I am writing with her satisfaction in mind as well as yours; and 2. I want you to realize that you actually have more freedom of choice than you think you have, and the choice to be proactive instead of just passive & emotionally reactive is real--and some variation on it could be a very good way to resolve this triangle.

 

You asked me if you were too emotional over her being married. And I think you are more paralyzed by your emotional reactions Because You Are Taking an Inactive Path. So your emotionality is building up, because the instinctual thrust of emotion is to motivate ACTION and EXPRESSION, and you are doing very little of either of these. You feel powerless, and that's a shame-inducing state, so you want to withdraw. But you can regain your power if you express more to Vicki and do what you can (more possibilities may be around) to act for YOUR interests. Pulling back is not a BAD choice, but I don't think you'll be very happy if that ploy lasts more than a week or two--and you're leaving ALL the power of choice and hence ALL the responsibility in Vicki's hands, so you're not going to feel more powerful that way. Love and power have to be in balance for a relationship to feel right, and you know that.

 

Vicki may not WANT you to take the power to force her to choose. But as long as she keeps dithering and NOT choosing, she's not going to be happy, you're not going to be happy, and emotional outbreaks are going to happen like what brought you to this website. So you'll be doing everybody a favor if you act instead of withdraw and refrain from intervening. Vicki's husband is going to have to face the music sooner or later, unless you go away and never come back. And you can show him the respect you feel by the way you act towards him.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.


I tried to rate you earlier and to reply but I guess the system is down and may still be down but I will try again....Your suggestions have helped me...And I have even thought of some of the suggestion myself and yours were different and I liked them but I would like to expand on them a little....I have thought about speaking to Vicki's husband myself but I don't know him or have ever met him all I know about him is he has changed since marring Vicki....A Diabetic that doesn't care about themselves can be a very volatile person to confront and I know first hand seeing friends and family members not being responsible in taking care of themselves....You can't reason with a unreasonable person and this is my understanding of Vicki's husband because his blood sugar is so high it would probably kill me because I have never had my blood sugar levels as high as his are on a daily bases ....so for me to bump into him and introduce myself to him may cause more trouble for Vicki then she needs right now...so I don't see that as an option that will work for me but I like the idea of it....and I asked Vicki to marry me several times starting 3 months ago and have even written her asking too....I think that her religion is what will take the longest for her to be able to then get a divorce.....she has to get the okay for an annulment first and I see that being a little tricky... and you are right about not being happy....I'm not happy with not seeing her and I'm sad because I can't be with her forever....then there's the fact that she is the bread winner not that he doesn't work he just doesn't earn as much as she does...but for now I feel it's better for the both of us to just talk on the phone because I think our mental health is more important and because an affair only hurts the innocent and I don't want that and she doesn't need that either.....she knows I want to marry her....she knows I love her.....and as much as I would like to help her about all I can do is support her and be here for her when ever she needs someone to talk to...maybe I could suggest her to contact you when she is in need of someone with more experience then myself because I know what I have gone through so I can only image what she is going through....and I always thought life got easier with age.....

Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.

I can vouch for the proposition that life does NOT necessarily get easier with age. But the choices we make come home to roost and we have to deal with everything that comes our way, including the sins of our parents and other aspects of our fate. I have a disabled daughter in chronic pain, from an incurable hereditary disease, from my mother thru me (tho I have had only less major manifestations, so I would never have known if my 25yr old daughter had not been diagnosed 10 years ago next week). And my wife is a cancer survivor with PTSD.

 

I feel very warm towards you, and your limiting conditions are entirely different than mine, but comparable in severity in some ways. I can't know the full story of your situation as a triangle until I say everything I see, and you respond. So I'm going to do some more of that.

 

Vicki's behavior over the years is puzzling and inconsistent. She's had two children out of wedlock way back when, and now she's having an extramarital affair. But she has to get the Catholic Church's permission to annul her marriage of only 4.5 years to a man she's never loved? Why does she hide behind the Church now? Is she putting on a facade for her grown children?

 

If what you say about her is really what she intends to do, then she too needs to face her own existential guilt for choosing happiness. By needing the Catholic Church's permission she is living the neurotic guilt that that religion has taught her. And she's already broken its commandments so many times! I don't know if they'll insist that she engage in counseling to prove that she's done everything she could to rectify her marriage first. But if she did have to do that, she'd be living another lie, because she doesn't want to save the marriage. And a good marriage counselor is pretty likely to find that out. Is she able to be honest with herself? About her distant past, her present and her future?

 

It's possible that facing the guilt and shame of her own choices is also part of her emotional state that led her to be so angry at you recently. Because she's angry at herself for getting into a mess with no guilt-free ways out. And that's why she needs to understand that she's entitled to choose her own happiness, even though that will hurt her present husband, but she will have to accept the responsibility and the guilt

that goes with it.

 

You can suggest that she contact me. But I think it's a bad idea to suggest she do it through JustAnswer or Pearl.com--unless we close our conversation first and request that the file be CLOSED to everyone, so she doesn't happen to discover what we've been writing. We can do that, or You can find my email (emails are automatically blocked here, and phone numbers too) by looking up my name and research article on autoimmune diseases, Low dose naltrexone for disease prevention.

 

I was not suggesting that you should talk to him without her knowing it first. But it seems extremely time-consuming for her to work out separating and divorcing (or "annuling") with him without confessing the real reason to him. It's not EVIL you know, since your relationship with her predates his by 20 years or more. It makes emotional sense that you both have to think, feel and talk about it for some more time before you're ready to do what it takes. But it seems clear to me that the best way forward is to tell her husband the truth about your past and your reappearance and mutual intention to complete and consummate the marriage that you would have accomplished then if not for your own drug problems, but without any mention of a present tense affair.

 

In 4.5 years of marriage, and another 4 years before that has Vicki never told her present husband about her relationship with you? If she hasn't, then she has more sins of omission to catch him up on, in order to prepare the stage for what you need to do now. She could do that "love history sharing" now and see how he reacts to it, as well as what he's got in his own BV (Before Vicki) closet.

 

That's enough for now.

I

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

well like I said Vicki has been very open me and to her husband before they were married she turned him down for the first 3 an 1/2 or 4 years before she finally said yes to marrying him....I sometimes think because he is older he might have wore her down to get her to marry him because back then we were both very sexual active together it never became boring or the same ole thing...so even I have a hard time with her marring knowing no more sex...so I sometimes think he may have made her feel bad and that is why she may have married him... she say no....and then maybe she felt obligated because he did help her get over her injuries ....She knew everything about him before she married him not being able to have sex and that he was a diabetic.... what she didn't know was that he was going to stop taking care of himself and lie to his doctors about his high blood sugar so to me he dropped the ball when he asked her to marry and now he wants to be a burden on her and pressure her to have to care for him when he refuses to do what is his reasonability to do and take care of him self so he can live a long life for his wife? ...over 30 years ago we were an item...she had been married and was separated from her then husband with a small child....what she nor I didn't know was she was expecting another child and at the time she wasn't showing.....when we met she was a new employee when I had been working even her first day of work she was assigned to the desk next to me and I was asked to train her I was 23 and she was 22...fast forward 25 years later she stayed single never dating working and raising 2 young children....she stayed single and raised them to adults she put them through college and even went back to college herself earning several degrees and working full time at the same company she was hired to work at when I knew her so many years ago...She met her husband in college and he helped her when she was in need of help and I think he developed a bond with her more then she did with him.....now she comes from a religions family and it's been a big part of her life....her father is even part of the church and holds a fairly responsible position with in the church....and is the spiritualty advisor for her....so there has been many months of counseling for the both of them just to be able to marry....and then marriage counseling after marriage because of other issues they have had....she agreed to marry she thought she wasn't going to get another chance and didn't want to be alone and because she didn't have sex with anyone other then me when we were young ourselves she thought at least being married would be better then being alone....Now who's to say there will ever be a divorce I don't know it might happen,,, it probably will happen.... I believe Vicki that it will happen...but I also know how people can be... it can be hard for people to go through a divorce....and some people will live being unhappy just because it's hard to admit they made a mistake.....You see there are many other people involved , family from both sides, God children from there friends from church, several people from a small community.....plus there health problems from an awful accident and more surgery's possibility in the future for her...and then there's me that had my chance and blew it... it wasn't until I became clean from drug use in 1990 that I finally realized what harm I may have caused this woman and her children when I left her so many years ago ....so if Vicki is having thoughts from that I have already done the suggestions you have made months ago...so I had to pull back and re-think what is best for me and what is best for her...plus I didn't want a part time relationship and I don't....I want it all or nothing....I was taught that an affair only hurts the innocent and I just can't continue knowing that...I'm not young or real old...I just think at my age I deserve a little more...a real full time relationship where there are no restrictions would be a good start...and when this all started between us I didn't know how it was going to effect me mentally or emotionally or for Vicki for that matter....I have never loved another woman in my life since leaving Vicki so many years ago.....I have dated and I have had other relationships but every woman I have dated and ever known has been compared to Vicki ....and none have ever made the cut...Vicki is an amazing woman she was at 22 and she is still amazing today, everything about her is amazing....so that's why I say the only thing I can do is support her because we will never lose the love we have for each other, that's for sure!... and if only friends are the only thing that happens then I guess that will have to do...because it's not my style to make anyone do anything they don't want to do.....

Customer: replied 1 year ago.


we probably should block all our corresponding because it's starting to become apparent that the subject matter should be just between us so yes if you have the capabilities of doing so on your end please do so...I request everything up to now be blocked from public viewing as to not create a future hardship on anyone....

Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.

I will continue with you and request a lock against public view, but if we can't communicate here either, then you'll need to look up my research article & find the corresponding author info.


You write that she's been open with you, and openly rejected her husband for 3.5 yrs. But I asked if she's told him about her prior LOVE FOR YOU? For that would be a solid basis for her to talk to him about your now being clean and her wanting to have another chance at happiness with you.

 

I understand now how many strings there are around her life--and did she get an annulment with the first husband? You probably don't have the option to forget your inner model for partner relationship, which your guilt and yearning has further idealized in all these years. But you do have the option to swim against the current of your own "first-love-partner complex" (which I believe is a control module in your cerebellum just like riding a bicycle, or mother- or father-complex) and find another relationship that is not an apparent clone of what your mind has elaborated with rosy reminiscence and stolen treasured trysts. How her parents felt about you way back when might play a role in the near future (a year or two) potential for making the change you both want. And then again, he could be unconsciously sending himself down the chute for burial at sea as the best way to end his sojourn, so you could have her after suitable mourning in less than a decade. But you can't pray for that, because that could promote a spiritual backlash too. Promoting spiritual harm to another person is an evil choice unless the other is actively evil too, and even then it's pretty scary territory--well above my expert-paygrade.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.

well I just spoke to her and she explained more to ....no she hasn't told him of our past and feels that the best way to do what she needs to do is speak to her spiritual advisor for guidance....She did receive an annulment from her first marriage....and since we have pulled back from each other....she feels that there is no need to tell her husband anything because we are no longer seeing each other and talking on the phone or texting is okay.....and I have to agree with her....I do miss seeing her and she feels the same about missing me....At first she wasn't happy that I pulled back but she has said that it has given her time to reflect on what she really wants which is me so she has taken the first step of her journey and I know it's not going to be easy or fast and we have many more talks ahead of us....and the emotional rollercoaster ride that we have been on seems to be subsiding in both of us and now it's turned to missing each others company....and after explaining my battle with Diabetes she has a better understanding of what her husband is going to leave her for being unwilling to take care of the responsibilities of having a disease that will not just hurt him but everyone that's in his life....and there may be more to his health we don't know because he has a child that's an adult and a grandchild that will be effected by his choice of letting the diabetes control him instead of controlling the diabetes.....so he is going to hurt his daughter and grandchild over his ignorance and it's not like he doesn't know what will happen because his doctors have told him ever since he was diagnosed with the disease so there must be more then even she knows like some kind of mental health disease I guess.....I see it like this I helped myself to become a diabetic so it's my responsibly to take care of myself the best way I can and it's work and sometimes it can even be difficult and frustrating having this disease but because I helped in getting it and because of all the people in my life I no longer have choice I have to take care of me so I don't become a burden on others and if she doesn't look at it that way because to me when he asked her to marry him he was making a promised to live a healthy live to be around for as long as he can for her and he has chosen to change the rules and do nothing to help himself.....to me there's difference between a person holding a loaded gun at there head and a person with diabetes not taking care of themselves.....the person holding the gun to there head is commenting an act of suicide but a person that has Diabetes that has chosen to do nothing just has a disease? to me that's wrong it's an act of suicide to me....who wants to be around and be part of that? who want's that in there life? it will change every aspect of her life if she stays in this marriage because she never agreed to be in the marriage and watch her husband kill himself and I think by me explaining the difference of me and him....like the reason he can't have sex with her or any woman for that matter is because he has chosen to be the same person he has always been and to eat what ever he wants and not take his doctors advise to the point that now he would rather eat then to take a handful of medicine...... he doesn't even use his insulin ....I have been a diabetic for almost 14 years my diabetes is under control I take 2 diabetic medicine's metformin and insulin and I take medicine for diabetic neuropathy that to me is worse then diabetes itself and I have been able to control my diabetes with just changing what I eat and being a little more active....it was easy for me....I still want all the foods that cause me to be diabetic in the first place but I also want to keep everything I have in working order....and I have chosen to watch what I eat and to take care of myself....So I do have a hard time when I hear about someone being a diabetic and choosing not to do what they need to do to have a healthy lifestyle...I can't understand why a person doesn't want to take care of themselves and to me these people deserve no one in there lives....all they do is bring good people down with them.....

Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.
You're right, and your argument with Vicki could help her move forward. I'm glad our conversations are working for you, and I'm learning from you also. There is a chance that Low dose Naltrexone (which is very cheap because it's been off patent since 1984) may reduce your peripheral neuropathy, since it inhibits inflammation and boosts both endorphin system (pain control for those who don't need or won't use narcotics) and the immune system. The evidence for diabetic neuropathy is not strong, but anecdotal evidence for neuropathy for Fibromyalgia Syndrome does have anecdotal backing. So you could download my article from googling and show it to your doctor You'd also have easy access to my digital address. Do you still want me to request lock down of our thread?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.

thank you and I have found your article and have read it and I will talk to my doctor and see what he thinks....and after thinking about all that I have said it might be best to lock down our conversations.....Just to ensure that it doesn't create some problems....I have see an email address on your article but it doesn't clue me into knowing if it's your email address mine isXXX@XXXXXX.XXX

Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.

OK we're set. That is my address on the article.Also If you go into the lowdosenaltrexone website (dot org) you'll find a huge amount of information. My article used to be referenced there too. There's also a gazorpa website mentioned that has a piece on how to talk to your doctor about LDN. And there's a new article about 2 cases of Complex Regional Pain Syndrome going into remission with LDN. You're already doing so many right things for diabetes that the neuropathic pain might be helped by LDN in conjuction with your other measures. I can't say I know for sure. I'll ask to lock down our conversation after midnight tonight (45min).

Customer: replied 1 year ago.


thank you and we will be talking soon!

Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 1 year ago.
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