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Ask Dr. Norman Brown Your Own Question

Dr. Norman Brown
Dr. Norman Brown, Marriage Therapist
Category: Relationship
Satisfied Customers: 905
Experience:  Family Therapist & teacher 35+ yrs; PhD research in couples
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I was with a woman for 7 years and we ended our relationship

Customer Question

I was with a woman for 7 years and we ended our relationship on very bad terms. I loved this girl with all my heart and I believe I tried everything I could to be with her. So as of 5 months ago she had my baby and I half heartedly tried to work on the relationship to see if we could work it out. Well I just didnt trust her. So behind her back I started dating another girl who is 8 years younger than me! I told the younger girl about my ex and didnt tell me ex about the new girl, yet I was sleeping with both of them. My ex found out about the new girl and packed up our son and moved to a different state. I blamed her for everything and lashed out at her viscously. Ive done nothing but party with various people and woman and ended up cheating on the new girl and what not. I care about the new girl, but I care about my ex to! Within the last month I have been fighting with the new girl and my ex and I have not had a fight in the last month. I have yet to bring the new girl around my family, but my ex I still bring around all the time , in fact when she visits, I have her stay at my parents house. I let her drive my car and I even gave her a 300 dollar birthday gift. I even paid 1200 dollars for brakes on her car and took her family out to dinner which cost me 800 dollars. I dumped the new girl and I am now on semi- friendly terms with my sons mom, but here is the tricky part. Whenever I get a voice mail from my sons mom, I save it for a few days and then delete it. Yet I save all the nasty mean emails from the new girl. What is wrong with me. It should be the other way around right. I mean new girl nasty voice mails save, sons mother, nice messages, delete. What is wrong with me? My other qouestion is why was lashing out at my ex/sons mother so much? I didnt want her to find out about the new girl , I dont even know why I didnt want her to find out, help me with that one too. why am I still holding onto those messages if I dumped the new girl. I also have to say that my ex really really broke my heart, she didnt cheat she just dumped me at the wrong time in life. I know she loves me, I just dont trust her. HELP!!!

I want to know these things,
1. Why the deletion of the wrong voice mail
2.Do I still love my sons mother
3. What can I do to trust her again
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Relationship
Expert:  Dr. Norman Brown replied 3 years ago.

nphbrown :

I see you're asking some of the same questions again that I responded to early this morning. So I guess you either didn't understand or didn't like my answers.

nphbrown :

You have added a sentence about how hurt you were when your girlfriend dumped you at the wrong time in life. Then that's your most powerful Attachment Wound, so that's the pain you will need her to empathize with and feel your feelings at that time and many times since then when that memory comes up in you. That's why you needed to hide your pain under the excitement of your new love with a girl who was more into you than you were into her. When you start up a healing relationship, even if it's 6 months after your big breakup with your Great Love, you normally automatically pick someone who is unlikely to ever want to dump you, which means both a person that doesn't really measure up to your ex and also that obviously looks up to you, so this time you've got all the power, and you won't even feel that bad if you do end up dumping her. the regrets,

nphbrown :

So here's another idea on why you're reversing the saving of text messages. You're keeping your 21yr old hottie's hatemail because you know inside that she's still in love with you or she wouldn't be fuming so much. And she can't really hurt you that much because she was fun, but you know she wouldn't be what you'd want when you do want to settle down again.

Customer:

Hello sorry I really didnt understand

nphbrown :

And this next part is embarrassing to write, but most of us do lots of nonsensical things when we're spinning around in a breakup like you are. Nonsensical because they're actually serving our primitive and unconscious needs and feelings, even tho our conscious mind and our conscience might not like what we're doing at all. Perhaps that's why you want to understand why you did what you did, both to your ex and to your 21yr old.

Customer:

Ok so in my idiot terms... let me see if I understand!

Customer:

I am really in love with my sons mother, but I am so hurt still by her actions that I picked a girl who will never meausre up to her yet will satisfy my physical need. I know that the 21 year old will hang on my every word like a puppet whereas the mother of my son wont put up with my crap.

nphbrown :

So here's what your primitive natural mind wanted from the new girl: revenge for what you felt when you got dumped yourself. by dumping her to clean up your act for your ex and both of your families, you did to her what your ex did to you.You keep her angry outbursts because she's lashing out at you in the same way that you lashed out at your ex when you got a chance on the phone.

Customer:

So my saving of the messages is really that a pat to my ego and the deleting of my sons mothers is a reminder of my screw up

Customer:

and in the long run, my sons mother is who I would end up with

Customer:

What do you think?

nphbrown :

Oh yeah, you got that first part. and your next revision is also spot on. You also feel like you have to be very nice and very careful with what you say to your ex, because a lot of your dignity and your future are riding on getting back and being able to restart the love you had before.

Customer:

Got it.

Customer:

But to be honest I have been an asshat

Customer:

How do I get my sons mother that I am trying to change

Customer:

I mean she moved to another state

Customer:

what do I do

nphbrown :

But the problem you have inside, is YOURE STILL HURTING AND RAGING AND CONFUSED INSIDE. That's also why you ask me if you really still love your ex, because you can't feel pure love as long as you're still hurting and angry about the wounds she caused by dumping you and moving away with your son.

Customer:

Also when my sons mother ask me why I did what I did, I lash out at her

Customer:

Got it

Customer:

Wow this helps

Customer:

How do I get past the hurt, pain, and rage

nphbrown :

I'm sorry we keep talking past each other, but that's the way the chat system works, perhaps the Q & A system would be better because it switches slower.

Customer:

Im sorry as well

Customer:

but you are really helping me

nphbrown :

But here's why you lash out at your ex when she asks you why you did that: You did that for revenge, and you haven't been able to understand that--until now, perhaps. You lash out because she's putting you on the spot, and making you feel like anything you say in response is going to be wrong because she will hate hearing it, so you lash out with the original anger that led you to hide out with the other girl and then get off on dumping her and watching her try to lash out at you. I can imagine you as a taller guy who's got one long arm straightarming against the smaller new girls forehead, so all the flailing fists the swings at you can't even come close to hurting you. That's how you wish you could feel about your ex's disapproval.

Customer:

Ok in response to your last statement. My sons mother had asked me if I was seeing another girl

Customer:

When asked I of course lied to her... Why did I not tell her about the truth

Customer:

Why did I not want to tell her the truth if I was out for revenge

nphbrown :

So I suggest you write all the angry things you would say to your ex, if you could only say that without hurting yourself in anybody's eyes, including even in hers. Imagine she's tied up on a chair in front of you, and she can't fight back, and she's taken a roofi or memory erasing drug, so she won't remember anything, not even the passion with which you're telling her how she hurt you and when and why. You do that until you feel like you've had your revenge and you're satisfied you've said what you want. Then you don't ever let her see it. You use it to be sure of the most painful wounding things she did and said, so you can ask her to feel what your feelings must have been at those times. She does that in writing and she does send it out to you. because she wants to help you heal your worst wounds, and you want to help her heal her worst wounds. This is the direct path to melting away the iron cagewalls around your heart and her heart. Then you will suddenly feel your love again. You'll be glad you didn't let your unexpressed anger and hurt staY in the way of your love any longer. Because now you can't really feel your love without also feeling your pain and anger, so it doesn't really feel like it's love.

nphbrown :

You didn't tell her the truth because your revenge urge was hidden even from you. And your everyday conscious self is too considerate and concerned about making the right moves to get back together, because everybody, even your own "better self" says that's the best way to get thru this horrible year and keep your self-respect and the respect of both families. That baby boy is your guarantee that staying together is going to be better than ditching each other.

Customer:

Ok Im reading and taking it all in

nphbrown :

But you've said she's pretty hard to get along with, and her family's not very together. SO I suggested that you pay for good psychotherapy for her, and I might be able to coach you in finding a good person that she could really heal with.

Customer:

She is easy to get along with. She is very no nonsense, she was my cheerleader

Customer:

She just had a screwy upbrining

Customer:

yet she managed to not turn out like them

Customer:

As I said before

Customer:

seeing her with our son has shown certain emotions in her that I have not seen in her before

Customer:

She is a giver, a people pleaser, she wants everyone to feel at ease even if it cost her

Customer:

I think her having the abortions was a way of keeping everyone happy, even though she really wanted those children

nphbrown :

I'm frustrated too, because it's really difficult for me to explain things to you and make sure that you're able to reason with me and to carry out suggestions I give by making them more what fits for you. THis really needs face to face conversation, or at least telephonic conversation. What I'm writing here should require several therapy sessions to reach your understanding so that you can use what you need. In Emotionally Centered Couple Therapy they go over every emotional change several times because we just can't learn those unaware things without lots of practice.

Customer:

I understand that thank you again

nphbrown :

God, she's suffered a lot from her own barrier against doing what feels right to her. I think I heard you saying last night that you wanted those children too. That you wanted to become a father even before now.

Customer:

I did want those babies and she did it with out asking me she lied to me. I think out of fear of her family, whom she has since cut ties with, to her benefit nonetheless, has helped her heal too

Customer:

I did want to be a father, and I wanted to marry her

Customer:

But after finding out about what she did, I just went the other way

nphbrown :

Where do you live? and where does she live now that she's moved away? Is she nearer to her folks now, or further away than she was before she moved. ;AHA. She is braving the wilderness of leaving the family. She does need a prince to love and protect her. She knows you want to do that. Your future looks good if you can leave enough of the partying behind and get thru the process of confessing your hurt to each other and each trying to empathize with the other's pain and lasting wounds. I think you could do all that better if you had a face-to-face therapist. [And could you move away from her parents and take care of your new family where she is now, or somewhere else but away from her parents?\

Customer:

I live in California, she moved to Arizona, her parents, live in California as well

Customer:

I need to confess something as well

nphbrown :

Of course I would love to help you with your healing. But I live in Florida, tho I was born and raised in LA and did most of my college education at Berkely, Stanford and Sonoma State in the North SF Bay.

Customer:

Very nice!!

Customer:

Im in good hands

nphbrown :

Please do tell me what you need to confess. I treat therapy as a priestly profession, and so does my wife.

Customer:

When I got caught, I told her I did not care about the other girl, well I continued to date the other girl, the 21 year old, I mean valentines day and all. If I did not care for her, why did I date her .

nphbrown :

So should I get a job doing Allstate Insurance Ads on TV? (Sorry, I can't stay serious all the time.)

Customer:

Thank you for you humor it helps

Customer:

Alot

Customer:

All state owes me money

Customer:

Is it the physical still

Customer:

I dated the 21 year old and was soooo mean to my sons mother

Customer:

I wish you were in souther ca

nphbrown :

Don't ever tell her that if you don't have to because she will find out and then hate you for lying again. Hey, you're human. You wanted to minimize the hurt you were causing your ex (I wish she had a name, cuz I don't like Ex, or "the mother of my child").

Customer:

Actually she knows that I continued to see the other girl

Customer:

she knows!

Customer:

Is is the revenge factor still

Customer:

Her name is Amber

Customer:

We never discussed it but I know that she knows

nphbrown :

I grew up in San Gabriel, but I'd never want to live in LA again. I could imagine living in San Diego, or anywhere in N Calif, but not in LA.

Customer:

Remember she is no dumbee

nphbrown :

So she might have to say that when you get to the point of expressing all of your regrets and empathizing, or she might spare you that. But don't count on it to evaporate without a trace. After all, look at how much impact your hurt and anger have had and how you had to express some of it when she put you on the spot on the phone.

Customer:

true!

nphbrown :

Sounds like you have a lot of respect for her. And you defended her when I suggested she might be pretty hard to live with because of her dysfunctional family.

Customer:

So I need to get past my pain and anger toward her.

Customer:

I do defend her but I want to blast her as well

Customer:

I have tried to replace her but I cant

Customer:

I think I just kept dating the girl to prove my point right? Or to feed my ego and my physical

Customer:

Would you agree that the 21 year old meant nothing to me

Customer:

and thats why I did not tell my sons mother about her>

Customer:

?

nphbrown :

Yes and that's why I've told you to write that trash letter about everyhthing you'd like to throw at her but can't without possibly ruining your future together. I'm sure there will be good Emotionally Focused therapists near your city, and you can find them on the internet. Scott Wooley is the dean for Marriage & Family Therapy in Calif Schools of Professional Psychology and a big honcho in Emotionally Focused Therapy. He'd be too expensive, but he'd know of lots of well-trained former students in the LA area. I think he's somewhere near Irvine, where they have a campus.

Customer:

I will google him

Customer:

Wow thanks so much

Customer:

I mean really

Customer:

I think this is going to be a slow process for us, but Im also in fear of losing my family, which I kinda have already, but really losing them to another man

nphbrown :

No, the 21yr old did mean something to you, she was a safe haven during your storms. She wanted you and you can be grateful to her for her effort. You can write her some day, very carefully--perhaps send your email to me first (nphbrown@aol).

nphbrown :

I don't understand really losing them to another man.

nphbrown :

And when you're ready I also have a confession to make to you that matters to me.

Customer:

But I mean she meant nothing to me like my sons mother did, she was just really something to do so to speak

Customer:

the 21 year old

Customer:

I dont want to see them with other man

Customer:

I think the 21 year old catered to my ego which I did like

Customer:

Confess please

nphbrown :

I want to hear about losing your family. Perhaps you need to get further away from them like Amber did. you go into the wilderness after her and build your own homestead. Of course your good job must be portable too.

Customer:

I mean loosing my son and my ex to another man

Customer:

What if she finds another guy

Customer:

I must tell you that my sons mother is a looker, she is smart, a people person, she is a total package

Customer:

so of course men will be after her

nphbrown :

Oh no, I think you can keep her from running that way if you start writing her about how you want to use therapy to get thru your pain and her pain, and how I've been coaching you about empathizing with her.

Customer:

True

nphbrown :

And here's why that could help: Amber came on this site earlier this week, and I became the major counselor for her. That's why when I saw your introduction at 2:18 Eastern time, I knew you were her man who wanted her back. She also bragged about how much money you spent on her and her family (but she rounded your dinner party up to $1000. So you have impressed her with your sincerity. You have been doing the right things so far, even by keeping as much of the worst stuff inside as well as you can.

Customer:

Really she did

Customer:

So its working

nphbrown :

So I've been doing marriage therapy and coaching both of you on how to heal your wounds. She hasn't come back on since Monday or Tuesday, I could check which, because I've been saving the best of what I've encountered on this site for my own future understanding.

Customer:

Wow thanks

Customer:

I know she is busy she is raising our son by herself

Customer:

What about replacing her, what do you see in that

Customer:

Ive tried but I cant

Customer:

your like a crystal ball

Customer:

sense of humor

Customer:

thank you should we meet again

Customer:

Im corey by the way

nphbrown :

I checked and she got most of her answers from another counselor, and I wrote her in the early morning of Monday. As I did right away with you--because I knew who you were, I wrote much more deeply tpo her about what was going on and how she could further the process of reconciliation. She didn't reply, or I didn't see a reply from her, so she might have not understood me either. I can explain a lot better when I know what you understand and what you don't, and I know what you're ready to absorb and use and what not yet. It is possible to use this site ongoing for a monthly subscription fee, not high at all. I don't understand how I get paid decently when that's what the questioner pays, but I'll be finding out, because I've only been active for under a month and already a handful of questioners have noticed the quality of what I choose to give them. That probably means that when I get my own website up, I'll have a clientele.

Customer:

Well I hope you get a great percentage you are really helping me

nphbrown :

I'd like to meet again, and your costs would be pretty low if you subscribe, and you could give me bonuses to keep me happier. In fact I'm getting 50% now, and I don't remember how many more "Accepts" I'll need before I reach the top, of 75%.

Customer:

I will absolutely

Customer:

With what I said do you think there is hope for us

Customer:

I know that I have embarassed her so much

nphbrown :

I've received congratulations (automated) from the management (they're in San Francisco) when I've been given a bonus, usually $15-25, but it probably depends on what the questioner can afford, because they don't have to give anything--and I'm pretty sure the management takes 50% of that too. I'm sure that they do notice when I'm motivating people to keep coming back, and that helps me maintain a good reputation here.

nphbrown :

Now when you write that you have embarrassed her so much, you are really doing the empathizing work. Hearing or reading THAT is what will melt the iron shield she needs to protect her from more hurt. And she's a new mother who'd really need her husband to protect, provide for and help her with the child.

nphbrown :

Yes I do think there is hope for you both. I know reuniting your own family is your highest priority. But I want to add that doing the remorse work of understanding and expressing what you can about how she must have felt at key points--BEFORE you try to tell her what your biggest hurt-moments, and shame-moments, as well as love-moments have been. If you learn how to do that by doing it with coaching, or in person during therapy sessions, then you will be a better man even if fate doesn't let you get back together. But I'm convinced that persistence will win out.

Customer:

ok well Im a work in progress

Customer:

If I were to be honest, Im not done being a bachelor

Customer:

but I am done with the other girl

Customer:

I know I hurt her

Customer:

I do want a life that is right for all three of us

Customer:

but you are helping me to be honest

nphbrown :

About the other men worry you have. I'm sure she will only let a man near her if he is comforting her and helping her with the baby. That's where your competition could come from. But she can't be over you any faster than you can be over her.

Customer:

I know shes not but she did leave with my child and the fact that I kept on with the other girl

Customer:

and I kept mistreating her

Customer:

and have never admitted my wrongs to her

Customer:

I dont see her ever coming to terms with it

nphbrown :

As to your bachelor blues: You're turning 30 or are 30 already (Amber said so). At age 30 it's very common and normal for men and women to have an "early adulthood crisis," and Astrology (of which my wife is an expert) predicts that too. I can witness to the impact of my own crisis, from 28 to 31, with the most painful peak at 30. Basically what often happens is that the 20s are what a Harvard psychologist whose work inspired the very popular Passages books of the 1980s. Then around 30 you hit a wall and discover that some of the paths you've been walking on till then are deadends (Like Bob Dylan had a motorcycle wreck and was out of commision for a year) So you can, if you're seriously paying attention, discover what you really want to devote your life to in adulthood and what you have to leave behind.

Customer:

I know in other words I need to grow up

Customer:

Ok Im sleepy as I am sure you are

Customer:

I have saved your email

nphbrown :

I won't go on with this now, because I need to tell you that, even tho you can imagine how she'll ever get over the things you've done and said--is exactly the kind of remorse and despair that will move her to realize that you really hurt now for what you did before and don't expect her to ever forget it. If you can say that, with humility and not bitterness. You are showing her how you can put down your own weapons and open your heart to feel for her (and not just for yourself). That's true vulnerability and that is what will heal your wounds and hers. That is the quality that so few men have, until they learn it thru great suffering, as you have been having. As a new mother, I think she knows that helpless feeling better than she did before, so you'll find a receptive ear and heart.

Customer:

Agreed

Customer:

One last bit of info from you

Customer:

please

Customer:

Everyone has told me that she would try to hit me for child support, and that she was a gold digger. But what they did not know about her is that her family is very wealthy, she was never the type to flaunt wealth.

Customer:

When we first began our relationship she was the one to pay all the bills etc

Customer:

Since she had our son and left her family it has been a struggle for her financially. Yet she has not filed child support against me

nphbrown :

So I will go now. It's only 3:45 tonight, where last night it was 4:45. My wife stays up all night most nights, because she has terrible chronic pain during the day, but can make jewelry at night and feel good. Both my wife and our only daughter have unimprovable chronic pain for the foreseeable future, though my wife has more hope in her diagnosis than our daughter, whose disease is fairly rare and incurable. Ok, now to what you're asking.

Customer:

Well as of recent my family celebrated a cultural holiday

Customer:

My parents who do not have much money either gave her 100 dollars and without question or a headsup she slipped the 100 dollars into my glove box of my car

Customer:

only to later mention that she wanted me to give the money back to my parents as she did not feel comfortable keeping their money

Customer:

What do you make of this on her part

Customer:

most woman would have kept the money! She needs it and yet still gave the money back

nphbrown :

So, Corey, that's some backbone Amber has in her. Wealthy families often use wealth to control their children. Hopefully in these very hard times, they will find it in their hearts to give to her even when she doesn't do what they want her to.

Customer:

Control is just the half of it with them!

Customer:

What type of woman do you make her out to be after that story

nphbrown :

Well, it seems to me that she's had a lot of bad trips associated with her parents' money, and she respects your parents for being not like her parents. She might be pretty fierce, now that she's escaping her family's noose, to make sure that she doesn't depend on anybody. But she could hurt herself and your child by being too rigid about that. I also think that when you're well into your process of mending your bond with her and working toward living together again in an area where you are your own bosses, a ways into that process, when she's seen you be truly empathic about her wounds as well as open about your own, then you could tell her you want to give her X hundred dollars a month to help out with the bills, NOT as charity, and NOT as guilt payment, and NOT as child support, because you don't accept that you are divorced and will not come back together soon. But as your contribution to her household for now, on the way to a more happy arrangement in the future. She'd resist now. But if you show her your feeling side, in a few months she might be ready to make the commitment she would know she's making by accepting your financial support for her life.

Customer:

Well see, she does get money from me and accepts it.

nphbrown :

Before I'd say anything about her personality, I'd need to reread what she wrote over last weekend to the other (female) counselor. I won't share that with you, because I insure client confidentiality by my professional ethics. But I'm not going to do that now. You've got an easier time with 1am than I do with 4am.

Customer:

But she knows my parent situation, she is not rigid about financial help

Customer:

she gave it back to them because she said she was not comfortable with keeping money from people who dont work

Customer:

I kinda feel like she is not the gold digger that I am told she is

nphbrown :

Oh great! Bless you all. I'm going to bed. Pop me a bonus and give me a shout when you're ready for more. I think it might turn out to be a good plan to just keep short contacts, half hour here & there, several times a week. I'm glad you're keeping what we've written, cuz there's a lot in this for you to think on, and later to ask me more about. I actually do very long sessions with some of my in-person clients here in Ormond Beach FL, next to Daytona Beach, My wife and I both put our love of our clients and doing what's best for their healing above getting paid for it as much as we could be getting, at least from those that can afford it. And today I saw on my Positive Psych listserv a subject heading Altruists live longer, and a week ago on Aolnews it said Conscientiousness is associated with longer lifespans. So doing what feels right in the bigger picture has its rewards.

Dr. Norman Brown, Marriage Therapist
Category: Relationship
Satisfied Customers: 905
Experience: Family Therapist & teacher 35+ yrs; PhD research in couples
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