Prior to the purchase of our condo, our realtor inquired whether or not our daughter needed to be added to the Deed since she is the one who would be living there. Prop mgmt said "...no she is immediate family and that is fine". HOA said "...wrong and you now owe us $12,000. for not following the Bylaws" (note that this was within a 30 day time frame from purchase date of the unit). We then were told that if we corrected the Deed issue and added her that the Board would more than likely w/draw the fine. We immediately added her name to the Deed. The Board is continuing to state that we owe a reduced fine of 4900.00 (since we were so quick to correct the error - how nice of them). Can they do this even though we were honest, corrected the "error" immediately and kept the prop mgmt informed as we went thru the Deed change etc. This does not seem legal to me - seems more like an HOA trying to pad their pockets. Thanks!Judi
State/Country relating to question: California
I have spoken to the prop mgmt - OMNI Corp. however, I don't feel like they have much say in what the HOA does or doesn't do. I have also asked to speak with the Board president but was deferred to the prop manager of this community. She told me I needed to attend a board meeting to present the Deed. We were out of town that week and I let her know I would be happy to speak to or email the members with my information but she declined and said she would deliver the information.
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yes I am here
Does the property manager admit they gave you wrong information?
No they claimed they did not know where we got that information. I have emailed the realtor to see if she recalls whom she spoke with. In reading the Bylaws it can be read as (and I'm paraphrasing) "the unit is not considered a rental if any immediate family member is residing in it" - this is where the confusion came in. They meant to say that the purchaser of the prop has to be living there...
Do they bylaws state that your children (adult or minor) cannot live in your units unless they are on the deed?
It does not state that directly - it's a matter of the wording but that is what they argue - that the person in the family has to be on the Deed if they are living there (so as not to be considered a rental).
Either way she can live their without being on the deed. They are just saying that it is not considered a rental to if an immediate family is living there.
Well then let's start by filing a complaint with the Attorney General of the State of California
They only allow for a certain number of rentals in the community. We did not purchase with the intent to rent other than to have our daughter live there while she's in school (she pays utilities and we pay the mortgage). When they asked for the information on the unit (who was living there etc) we were honest in telling them that she would be living there for the time being but not renting. They then stated that we had to put her on the Deed for 200. which we did to avoid a 12k fine. We received a ltr today stating that they were reducing our fine to 4900. because we made the correction.
How would I file with the Attorney General's office?
You said earlier if an immeidate family member lives there it is NOT considered a rental? Is that correct
That's what we were told however, they referred back to the Bylaws which states (and sorry, I don't have them here they are at the condo) to the effect that the family or immediate family member would NOT be considered a rental - but it's very ambiguous in the wording. I had others read it and they read it to understand that this would mean spouse or child could reside without being considered a rental or needing to be on the Deed.
I would agree with you. We can keep the question open for you to give me the exact reading. I will say this, and don't shoot the messenger, you need to know what the bylaws state because the Realtor has no liability for giving you wrong info. That being said it sounds like even if you read it yourself it still would have been ambiguous. The above link is the California AG complaint address.
I figured that's how it would fall out with the Realtor too. It is ambiguous enough that after 4 others read it and I asked what they thought (and these are people who deal in legal docs) they all thought the same as I did. That my daughter could live there and not be considered a renter. BotXXX XXne is, do they have the right to fine me after we immediately contacted them and corrected the "problem". This part doesn't seem legal. Do they just get to make things up? Sorry, I've never ever had to contact an attorney for anything before so I'm truly new to this process.
Don't be sorry about having questions. I still have questions and I have been doing this for 24 years
I want to see the language so I can be able to tell you why they cannot fine you.
Attny 2 - thank you - this all is very foreign to me, I'm not the litigious type.
I would have to get a copy of the Bylaws but that will take me 30 min to run and get them and return. How do we leave this open?
If the bylaws state they can fine you then they can fine you regardless of their ridiculous verbal statements to you. This is true because they will tell you that you needed to check the bylaws. All a ridiculous circle jerk with you on the receiving end of their ambiguous rules.
I will switch this out to a Q & A and it will ask you to rate me. You don't need to rate me until we are finished with this process and only when you feel that I have provided you with the info you needed.
Yes, and the Board members are just that ambiguous. Some have been fined for hanging a towel to dry on their fence while others aren't fined...just depends which member happens to see I suppose. They would probably go head to head with our Supreme Court Justices! haha.
HOA's can be absurd and Judges are finally come down on them and new legislation is in the works everday.
So basically, I could be out of luck on this one just because of their lack of clarification/wording and ambiguity.
Not exactly, the second thing you learn in law school about contracts is that Any ambiguous language will be construed against the drafter of the
I'm pretty persistent so I'm not one to let this go and pay the fine...I need something solid though. I will be talking to the OMNI prop mgmt person on Monday (providing she's available).
I am still here for you too.
Ok so if you switch this out to Q/A and I get the Bylaw wording how do I reconnect with you online? Sorry - like I said, I haven't done this.
It is tricky. If I switch to Q & A we are in a different format and we cannot speak this quickly to each other
I will receive an email that you are back on and that you answered me
I just want you to be armed against these people. I am tired of HOA's abusing homeowners.
Ok that's fine then. Thank you for your help. I agree. I hear stories all the time and it's ridiculous. That's why I'm not letting this go. Alright I'll log out and get back via Q/A.
I am going to grab a quick bite and log back on for you.
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ok I'm back with the HOA doc
I have been here awaiting your arrival. What does the document state?Attorney241091.0708200231
[Article 4.17.1] Restrictions on the Number of Lots Rented: ...."shall be rented or otherwise occupied by anyone other than an Owner, members of an Owner's household, or temporary guests..."This is the ambiguous wording. My daughter is still a member of our household according to tax law.
She is not renting and therefore does not come under that provision. What does it say about who can lawfully reside in the property?
I only got a portion of your reply in the email and I don't see where the rest of it is. It keeps taking me back to this page...
She does not qualify as a person renting the condo, so that provision is moot. Is there a provision that states who can live in a condo?
I did not want you to pay and additional $12.00 for us to continue with the same question. We will be working from this page.
Are you still on line?
25 Years in General Practice, Real Estate Law and Estate Law
ok haha now is this working? I'm completely lost on navigating this site. It wouldn't let me rate you until just a few minutes ago!
,ok haha now is this working? I'm completely lost on navigating this site. It wouldn't let me rate you until just a few minutes ago!
I am here
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