Ask Your Question. Experts Answer You ASAP.

Chemistry

Sent to General Experts August 29 2006 at 5:25 AM
   

When you mix Bicarbonate of Soda with Tartaric Acid and a surfactant you can create a paste which will sets hard over night. The resulting solid product can then be broken off in peices and used as a novel bubble bath. (Such as those available at www.lush.com).

My question is.. Tartaric Acid is a dicarboxylic acid. What other type of acid could I use to create the same effect if the acid that I use cannot be a dicarboxylic or dihydroxybutanedioic acid?

 

Customer (name blocked for privacy)
Answer
August 29 2006 at 4:25 PM (11 hours and 12 seconds later)
         
REPLIEDCheck Mark

Carboxylic acids occur widely in nature. They are weak acids that will react with a base such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to form carboxylate salts, carbon dioxide and water. It is the carbon dioxide that result in the bubbles.

Citric acid, a tricarboxylic acid shares the same chemical properties as tartaric acid. Like tartaric acid which is found in for example, grapes , citric acid is also found in food - citrus foods. Acetic acid (vinegar), one of the simplest carboxylic acid is another candidate. These would be safe to use in bath products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartaric_acid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid

Here is a recipe for foaming bath bombs using citric acid:

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Foaming_Bath_Bombs.htm

Alternatively, why not also consider the SALT form of tartaric acid rather than another acid? This would be potassium hydrogen tartrate more commonly known as cream of tartar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_of_tartar

Here is a solid bubble soap recipe that uses cream of tartar, sodium bicarbonate, surfactant plus some extra ingredients :

http://www.pvsoap.com/recipe_bubble_bath_drop.htm




Hope this helps and that you will accept my help!
Reply
August 30 2006 at 3:49 AM (11 hours and 23 minutes and 9 seconds later)
         
Reply to GemB's Post: Hi GemB,

Thanks for your answer.

The problem is, I cant use dicarboxylic acid and as far as I am aware, cream of tarter is a form of dicarboxylic acid.

What I need is a powdered substance such as cream of tarter and which also is NOT a dicarboxylic acid.

I also cannot use citric acid because during the manufacturing process when I add the various surfactants (which contain water), the reaction occurs which spoils the product. ie it fizzes.

If I use Cream of Tarter, there will be no fizzing and I can create a paste like substance which I can easily mould into various shapes. The paste then sets hard over a period of about 24 hours, it is then very simple to break pieces off add drop into a bath without destroying the remaining product. I should also add that a recipe containing cream of tarter will not fizz in the bath unlike a bath bomb containing citric acid.

So what I am after is a recipe for a solid bubble bath,

1. which will allow me to break off small pieces and drop into a bath.

2. Where the remaining (unused) product stays intact.

3. Which includes water based surfactants whitout causing a reaction during the manufacting process.

I want a recipe that reads;
(a) Sodium Bicarbonate
(b) Surfactant
(C) A SUBSTITUTE FOR CREAM OF TARTER THAT IS NOT A DICARBOXYLIC ACID.

If you can think of anything please let me know.

Thanks and kind regards

Dell979
Answer
August 30 2006 at 7:13 AM (3 hours and 24 minutes and 19 seconds later)
         
REPLIEDCheck Mark

Ah, I understand - you don't want fizzies. Acetic acid has only one carboxyl group and that is what you can try. But remember, vinegar is a dilute acetic acid solution though.

Then strongly consider EDTA (ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid): .Images available only to Customers.

It's used in alot of grooming products listed here

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=chem&id=938

Even for soap - this soap recipe (not the solid kind you want) uses EDTA :

http://www.ponapecoconut.com/international/bathsoap.htm

For a surfactant, use sodium lauryl sulphoacetate.

The free patents online website :

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5955057.html

shows the proportional recipe you should be using to obtain a novel solid bubble bath soap - actual weights will depend on the batch quantity you wish to make:

1. 40-90% weight sodium bicarbonate

2. 5-50% weight of the organic acid

3. 0.5-15% weight of alcohol. (doesn't say which but I suggest isopropanol )

Plus other optional ingredients like oil, colouring agent and perfume to enhance the product.The method apparently offers fast mixing and manufacturing time. Try creating an account and see if you can get more information.

Another organic acids to try might be ascorbic acid (vitamin C) .

Good luck!




Hope this helps and that you will accept my help!
Answer
August 30 2006 at 7:38 AM (25 minutes and 9 seconds later)
         
REPLIEDCheck Mark

PS Here is a link which lists other natural carboxylic acids :

http://www.cem.msu.edu/%7Ereusch/VirtualText/crbacid1.htm

As you can see you have other natural alternatives besides ascorbic acid, like stearic acid and palmitic acid which have also been used in soap making.




Hope this helps and that you will accept my help!
Reply
August 30 2006 at 9:38 AM (1 hour and 59 minutes and 40 seconds later)
         
Answer
August 30 2006 at 12:50 PM (3 hours and 12 minutes and 8 seconds later)
         
ACCEPTEDCheck Mark

Thanks for the additional information - I now realise why you don't want to use the cream of tartar.

No, EDTA is not a dicarboxylic acid because it has four carboxyl groups - it's a polyprotic acid and not two like tartaric acid. Here is the structure of tartaric acid for comparison with the one for EDTA (I've drawn around the groups located at the end ):

Images available only to Customers.

However, I noticed that you included a UK patent - I assume you are located in the UK? EDTA is not appropriate for you as western European nations do not allow it in detergents for environmental reasons - it is not biodegradeable. The isomer (almost similar) EDDS (S, S'-ethylenediaminedisuccinic acid) IS a biodegradeable substitute:

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/edta/edtah.htm

You will very likely have to experiment with proportions whatever you use -in order to get the effect you want. As this person did - experimenting with sodium bicarbonate, sodium lauryl sulfoacetate and cream of tartar to get a solid bubble bath:

http://www.notmartha.org/tomake/bubblebath.html

With a little more digging, I found this website advertising instructional books which show you how to make many kinds of soaps including bubble bars which may help you short cut the experimental process:

http://www.mabelwhite.com/Apothecary.htm

Good luck!



Edited by GemB on August 30 2006 at 12:52 PM



Hope this helps and that you will accept my help!
Reply
September 20 2006 at 10:09 AM (20 days and 21 hours later)
         
Reply to GemB's Post: Hi GemB,

I know you have already answered my question, but I have come across a problem with the answer. In order for the EDTA to work as a substitute for the Cream or Tartar, I need to use it at 30% and I have been advised that ETDA or its substitute should only be used at levels up to 3%.

Can you think of any other substance that I could safely use at 25-30% instead of the EDTA?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards

dell979
Answer
September 20 2006 at 3:33 PM (5 hours and 23 minutes and 50 seconds later)
         
THIS ANSWER IS LOCKED!
You can view this answer by clicking here to Register or Login and paying $3.
Think you can answer this question?
Login or Become an Expert

 

DISCLAIMER: You acknowledge that any information you may obtain from individuals you contact through use of the JustAnswer service comes from those individuals, not from JustAnswer, and that JustAnswer is not in any way responsible for any of the information these third parties may supply. The site and services are provided "as is" with no warranty and no representations are made regarding the qualification of an Expert. Responses and comments on JustAnswer are for general information and are not intended to substitute for informed professional advice (such as medical, legal, investment or accounting) and do not establish a professional-client relationship. JustAnswer is not intended or designed to address EMERGENCY QUESTIONS which should be directed immediately by telephone or in-person to qualified professionals. Please carefully read the Terms of Service.

JustAnswer > General