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MrDiag
MrDiag, ASE Certified Tech
Category: Pontiac
Satisfied Customers: 168
Experience:  16 Years of experience in Automotive Service Industry
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2002 Pontiac Grand Am: wont stay running..dosent..It catches at first

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Okay so 2002 Pontiac Grand Am 2.2 won't stay running. Actually it really dosent even start. It catches at first for about a second and a half then just constantly turns over. Just picked the car up and I noticed that none of the lights on the dash turn on when I turn the key to the ON position. I hear the fuel pump kick on and back off like it should-horn works -car turns over-radio and heater blower works-from what I remember the interior dome lights work too. All fuses and relays that I can tell are working that are under the hood. Took my test light and both sides of the fuses illuminate. Also with the ignition ON or OFF I have no current running through any of the circuits in the interior Fuse panel of the car. All fuses are good but no power to any of them. Hooked my Scanner to the OBD port and I got nothing. Tested the ground pins and the power pin and get nothing. Don't know if the car not starting and the interior outage is related but, I'd really like an experts advise.

Thanks in Advance, Milton
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Pontiac
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.

MrDiag :

Hi, My name is XXXXX XXXXX I am here to answer your Pontiac questions. Please provide as much information as possible so I can better assist you.

MrDiag :

Do you have power to any of the fuses at the fuse panel with the key on?

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Not in the inside of the car
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
OK. Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. Are you near the car now?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
yes ...
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
Great. We need to start by checking to see if you have power coming from the green wire at the back of the ignition switch. (With key on) If so we need to see if there is power at the orange wire. Let me know what you find and we will continue.
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
Sorry, red wire and green. The red looked orange at first on this diagram.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Yes red constant and green on the switch
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
OK. Next we need to check to see if there is power to the dark green wire at the back of the instrument panel fuse block. This wire feed power to some of the circuits that you don't have power to at the fuses. The wire come from the ignition switch to the fuse panel. If you have power to this wire at the ignition switch then we need to see if there is a break in the wire somewhere in between, or if the fuse block is faulty.

Let me know what you find and we will continue from there.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Yes have power there. ok strange thing, got into the car today and it started! Drove it around and all. The car has been sitting for almost 2 yrs. Still didn't have any lights in the dash speedo, Tach, odometer,none of the warning lights check engine, security, ABS, Airbag none of those lights are on nor were they on when I took the car around the block. Got backed turned it off and BAM!!! back to the same crap. OBD port still has no power.
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
You have a pretty tricky problem it seems. We must now do some more investigating. By what you have described, the problem really sounds like a bad ignition switch. But if you have power at that green wire then you should at least have power to the fuses that are fed by it. And you did say you have no power at the IP fuse block which sounds like a bad fuse block.

That being said, I think you should still check some other power feeds coming from the ignition switch.

Check for power at the ignition switch on the following wires:
Red, power feed to ign switch from Ign sw/Batt 1 fuse in underhood fuse block.
Red/black, power feed to ign switch from Ign sw/Batt 2 fuse in underhood fuse block.
Brown, which feeds the wiper fuse
Pink, which feeds the Air Bag, and Turn Lamp fuses
Dark Green (again) which feeds PCM, ACC, IPC, BFC, ACC fuses
Orange, which feeds circuit for rt side IP block
The yellow wire is the crank wire so if it cranks we know it has power when in the crank position.

If you have power going to ign switch at red and red/black wires and are missing power from any of the others, then replace ignition switch as it has most likely failed.

If you are missing either power feed to ignition switch, then check for power at the Batt1 and Batt2 fuses under hood. If power is present then suspect a broken wire between the underhood fuse block and the ign switch.

If you have power to all feed wires coming from ign switch but still no power to any area of the IP fuse block, then suspect bad fuse block, wiring issue, or both.

Let me know after you have checked these things. Hopefully this will reveal the problem.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Ok I have power at interior fuse box now. Don't know what or how that happened. Still no warning lights or any movement in dash and still no power at OBD link. Could my pcm be bad?
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
Anything is possible however it still sounds like loss of power somewhere. You should still have power at the OBD connector. You might have more than one problem going on here.

I am curious if you have power to the whole IP fuse block or just some circuits? The ignition switch could cause an intermittent power loss to some circuits in the IP fuse block. As you can see from my previous post the switch supplies a bunch of things with power. There are contacts inside the switch which can go bad and make intermittent or no connection thereby not supplying power where needed.

In addition to the Ign Switch, there have also been problems with the IP fuse block. The IP fuse block or connectors/wiring at the back can cause this type of issue by not completing circuits and causing loss of power.

I know that I have mentioned these two issues before but just wanted to explain with a little more detail as I have seen cases where each has caused similar problems.


Be sure that you have power to the following fuses, and if you have a meter please measure the voltages to be sure that they are close to battery voltage.
IPC/HVAC BATT 10A
IPC/BFC ACC 10A (Fuse for OBD connector and dash cluster aka IPC)
PCM ACC 10A
RADIO BATT 15A

If you have power at the fuses mentioned especially IPC HVAC BATT fuse, then we need to see if there is power at the orange and the purple wires at the back of the IP block going out from this fuse.

If no power then we need to check power at the L/H BEC BATT 2 30A fuse in the underhood fuse block. If power is there, a red wire goes from the back of the underhood fuse block to the IP fuse block, we need to see where it loses power.

I know this is a lot to cover but I will try and walk you through as much as possible and continue to work with you until we either find the problem or run out of ideas.

Just to make it easier, I would do this first:
Check voltage at IPC/BFC ACC 10A (Fuse for OBD connector and dash cluster aka IPC)fuse in IP fuse block.

If Battery voltage is there, check power at the back of the block at orange and purple wires.

If Battery voltage is not there then check the L/H BEC Batt 2 fuse in underhood block then red wire from there to IP block.

Print this out if you need to. And let me know once you have tried this test and we will continue. (At this point I am leaning toward bad IP fuse block)
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
Anything is possible however it still sounds like loss of power somewhere. You should still have power at the OBD connector. You might have more than one problem going on here.

I am curious if you have power to the whole IP fuse block or just some circuits? The ignition switch could cause an intermittent power loss to some circuits in the IP fuse block. As you can see from my previous post the switch supplies a bunch of things with power. There are contacts inside the switch which can go bad and make intermittent or no connection thereby not supplying power where needed.

In addition to the Ign Switch, there have also been problems with the IP fuse block. The IP fuse block or connectors/wiring at the back can cause this type of issue by not completing circuits and causing loss of power.

I know that I have mentioned these two issues before but just wanted to explain with a little more detail as I have seen cases where each has caused similar problems.


Be sure that you have power to the following fuses, and if you have a meter please measure the voltages to be sure that they are close to battery voltage.
IPC/HVAC BATT 10A
IPC/BFC ACC 10A (Fuse for OBD connector and dash cluster aka IPC)
PCM ACC 10A
RADIO BATT 15A

If you have power at the fuses mentioned especially IPC HVAC BATT fuse, then we need to see if there is power at the orange and the purple wires at the back of the IP block going out from this fuse. If no power at these wires but power at the fuse, you have a bad fuse block. If you have power at the fuse and wires then we need to go further with checking power elsewhere. (Let me know)

If no power at fuse then we need to check power at the L/H BEC BATT 2 30A fuse in the underhood fuse block. If power is there, a red wire goes from the back of the underhood fuse block to the IP fuse block, we need to see where it loses power.

I know this is a lot to cover but I will try and walk you through as much as possible and continue to work with you until we either find the problem or run out of ideas.

Just to make it easier, I would do this first:
Check voltage at IPC/BFC ACC 10A (Fuse for OBD connector and dash cluster aka IPC)fuse in IP fuse block.

If Battery voltage is there, check power at the back of the block at orange and purple wires.

If Battery voltage is not there at fuse then check the L/H BEC Batt 2 fuse in underhood block then red wire from there to IP block.

Print this out if you need to. And let me know once you have tried this test and we will continue. (At this point I am leaning toward bad IP fuse block)
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

So I found the problem with the OBD link. There was not a fuse in the darn thing. I think someone pulled it out and used it else where. I had to get a schematic for the fuse panel because they were missing. Anyways so... Got the OBD port working with the fuse and when I did that the indicator lights came on. Everything started working except the car still didn't start. Then I left the key on for a few minutes came back to find that all the indicator lights were off again. Turned the key off then back on still nothing. Pulled the IPC/BFC ACC 10A (bottom right) and put it back in and it all came back. Full tank of gas and everything. When the indicator lights stopped working again the OBD port was still working. Just nothing on the cluster. I'm still going to run the procedure you gave me to make sure I have the correct voltages where needed. I guess the question I have is would any of this cause the car not to run? The only 2 codes that were picked up from the scan was the TPS and the MAP only because I unplugged them to test them. The TPS ended up being bad so I replaced it. ALL fuses in the panel have power. I don't know how much yet but they all have power.

Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
Some things losing power could cause it not to start. Now that you have indicator lights, is the security light on when you try to start it?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
No.. security light comes on then goes out like normal
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
Good. The next step is to check what I mentioned earlier and if nothing is found to be wrong, we need to see what is missing when it won't start, spark, fuel, injector pulse, etc.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
OK-it does have injector pulse. when key on there is power then it goes out & while cranking the car, they all pulse. I do hear the fuel pump but I know that doesent mean anything but I happend to notice that there is not a fuel pressure valve anywhere on the fuel rail or the line. Oh by the way this is a 2001 Pontiac Grand AM 2.4 Twin Cam ( I thought this was edited alreadyCool) - I really hope that dosent make the difference.. Its got to be something simple. It started that one day and had plenty of power 20 mins. Then back to this, other than the indicator lights not working I would have thought the car was fine.
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
Just to clarify, what doesn't have power when cranking?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
lol... everything seems to have power now once I put the fuse in. except the fact the dash goes out and the car won't stay running or won't start.
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
Ok. So you have the quad 4 engine correct? I will need to verify the wiring diagram for the year and engine that your car is. I based the previous info on the vehicle listed. Sorry it didn't change if you edited it. And you are correct that there is no fuel pressure test port. You have to connect a gauge online with the fuel line on these cars. Also checking for spark is a little more tricky on the quad 4.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Correct!

Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
I have checked and the wiring colors should be the same in regards XXXXX XXXXX information I gave you in the earlier posts.

In addition to the other wires, check for power at the ignition module 10A fuse in the underhood fuse block with key in both run and crank positions. If there is intermittent power to any vital circuits like this one (which goes through ignition switch) then the symptoms you are experiencing can happen. If the little contacts are making connection, the car will start and drive but let's say the connection drops and you lose power to the ignition module, then you have no spark and therefore no run.

If after you had attempted to start and the security light was flashing or staying on we would be looking into an anti-theft issue, but you have indicated that the light is not staying on or flashing so we must continue to look at the other items.

When checking for power at the wires and fuses in car, try moving ignition around and turning key/jiggling to see if the voltage changes or drops off.

Let me know what you find and we will keep looking at things. I have some more ideas but we need to rule things out so we don't work against ourselves. The way you describe the intermittent power to the dash really sounds like ignition switch playing games.



Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
The more I think about it the more I think it's the ignition switch.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
HMMM... that would cause an intermitten issues with the indicators? And me being able to pull the fuse while never touching the ignition switch and bring them back on?
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
It is difficult to say without having the vehicle present. This is why we need to do some testing to find out which direction to go . Like I mentioned before I have seen both the ignition switch and fuse block cause these types of problems but until we test we won't know. I am logging off for the night but will come back tomorrow. Have a nice night .
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Thanks you too..
Expert:  MrDiag replied 2 years ago.
If you try to start the car today keep an eye on the security light.

Let me know how the testing goes with those circuits.
MrDiag, ASE Certified Tech
Category: Pontiac
Satisfied Customers: 168
Experience: 16 Years of experience in Automotive Service Industry
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