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GM Tech (Cam)
GM Tech (Cam), Pontiac Technician
Category: Pontiac
Satisfied Customers: 27666
Experience:  GM Grand Master Technician 2007. 11 years experience.
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Pontiac Sunfire: 99 sunfire 2.2 leter theft system light stays

Resolved Question:

99 sunfire 2.2 leter theft system light stays on and car will not start. Found a clear plastic circuit component under the drivers floor mat which was not connected, pluged it in, car still won't start
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Pontiac
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Hello, I'm Cam. Please include all the details about your issue so I can accurately advise you. I cannot see your vehicle so please be detailed.

Does the security lift flash for several mins after releasing the key from the start position?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
The light stays on continously
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Ok so I am not sure it is theft them. So does the starter make any noise?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
car will not crank at all, no clicks, battery fully charged
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Is there power at the small stud of the starter wth the key in crank?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
No power to small stud while trying to start - there is power to main battery connection, also i can hear the fuel pump prime. All fuses are checked. Is the clear plastic box circuit OEM or not? When I got the car two years age I disconnected the after market alarm system and It has worked just fine since then. Maybe I didn't see the clear box
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Ok, there may be a recall for this. Can you check for power on the thick yellow wire off the igntion switch? These are known for the switch filling due to a load by the starter and the recall, if you apply for it, is to add a relay to reduce the load on the switch.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
It's getting dark and the temp is dropping. I'll check the yellow wire tomorrow. I have been working on cars since 1967 through to todays cars an am an electronic engineer so I have the equipment and can trouble shoot. I jumpered the starter relay to positive and the car started for a few seconds, then died. Did it three times, same results. Please respond to the following:

1: Is the clear box circuit device after market OR OEM?
2: Is the Yellow wire on the ignition switch constant 12 volts or just for starting?
3. Does the Theft System have a reset procedure? I checked with the dealer and my vin # XXXXX not have a security ignition key.
4: I'm not going to pay for towing to a dealership if it is covered by a recall. If I replace the the switch will the car run so I can drive it?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
This is the reset..

Turn the key on, with the engine OFF.Try to start the engine, then release the key to ON, Engine will not start. Watch the security telltale, after about 10 mins, it will turn OFF.
Turn OFF the ignition, and wait 5 seconds.
Repeat steps 1 through 4 two more times for a total of 3 cycles/30 minutes. You must turn the ignition OFF before attempting to start the vehicle.

No your key does not have a chip but the security sensor is in the igntion cylinder as it measures the rotation of it.

The clear device I think may be air bag.

Yellow is start only so it should have power in start only.
To try and start, have someone turn the key to crank while you jump the starter. If it is covered you will need them to replace the switch under the recall or it will be your cost.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I tried the 3 cycle 30 minute system a few few times, no help - the security light NEVER GOES OFF! AM I WASTING MY TIME WITH THIS?

Does the theft system light really mean anything?

You said that the security sensor in the ignition cylinder measures the rotation of it. What do you mean by "rotation"? Will replacing the cylinder resolve the problem it it is faulty?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
On this, security does not lock the starter so yes, you are wasting time with the security but you did ask so I answered.
Did you see my tip about having the key in crank while jumping the starter? It stalling when you did jump it was security preventing it but holding the key should enable it.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Your tip about cranking while I jumper the starter, I will try as soon as I have help, probably within the hour. But are saying that this procedure will circumvent the security lock out? Do I have to continuously hold the key in START to have the car run, or only while I'm jumper the starter?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
It does circumvent the security, it is only to bypass faulty ignition switch that I suspect you have.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Okay, I jumped the starter motor while some one held the ignition switch in the start position and the car runs. Great! Does this mean that the ignition switch is bad?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Yes that means this is either a bad ignition switch or the neutral safety switch that is faulty.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Where is the neutral safety switch located, in the center column or under the car on the transmission?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
on the top of the transmission around the shift shaft.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Is there a method to check the neutral safety switch without removing it?
Is the switch a simple make - brake contact type? I see two connectors one multi pin the other two leads
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
It is a make or break contact yes.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Is there a way to determine which is bad, the ignition switch or the neutral safety switch?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Test the yellow and see if it has power. Otherwise unplug the neutral switch and jump the two large wires and see what happens.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
The neutral switch seems to be fine,so I'll try the ignition switch. can you tell me how to remove it?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Take the trim off the column and there are 2 screws from the drivers side, an E4 torx.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I replaced the ignition switch and things are no better. Here are the symptoms:

Ol;d switch:
1. If I jumper the big yellow wire off the ignition switch to B+ while rotating the switch to start the engine runs fine until next start, then I have to do it all over again.
2. The theft system light stays on.

New switch:
1. If I jumper the yellow wire to B+ the engine starts and then dies.
2. The theft system blinks five times, then stays on.
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Did you unplug the security sensor at all?


Customer: replied 2 years ago.
What security sensor? We never discussed that. Where is it?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
It is part of the igntion cylinder.
IF you unhooked it then this could be the result.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
1. Are you talking about the three pin connector that is on the key side?

2. If so, what do I do?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Yes that is it, and if it was me i would get a 2200 ohm resistor and unplug the, bridge the yellow the the black and do the relearn.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I will do that but should I do it with the new switch or the old?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
With the switch, did the yellow get power on its own in crank?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
No! I had to jumper it to B+
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Do both red and the red with the stripe have power?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
The black connector on the ignition switch has two red wires (no red/wt), they both have 12V
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
What happens if you turn the switch manually?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Nothing
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
This makes no sense. The red supplies power to the yellow to start the engine so either the new switch is bad or the connector is bad.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Earlier you said to use a 2200 ohm resiStor to bridge the yellow and black wire ( I assume you mean on the small connector on the right side of the key) Once I do that do I turn the key to on or what?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
YEs to the small wires.
Once you get that in, do the relearn.
Turn the key on, with the engine OFF.Try to start the engine, then release the key to ON, Engine will not start. Watch the security telltale, after about 10 mins, it will turn OFF.
Turn OFF the ignition, and wait 5 seconds.
Repeat steps 1 through 4 two more times for a total of 3 cycles/30 minutes. You must turn the ignition OFF before attempting to start the vehicle.

Start the engine .
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
1: should I back probe the yellow to black wires or disconnect it and then jumper the 2200 ohm resistor?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
disconenct and jumper using the resistor.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
For the relearn procedure should I go to start between each cycle, or just to on?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
you must try to start each time.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Based upon my previous question should I use the old or new ignition switch?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
IF neither put power to that yellow when you tried to start, the thick yellow then we need one that does.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you said.
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
On the igntion switch, if you rotate the key to start an you do not get power on the yellow wire then there is either no power to the switch or the switch is bad.
Even if you do the resistor bypass, you will not get it to run properly until you get power going out to the thick yellow when you cycle the key to crank or start .
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I understand now. My question is that SHOULD resetting with the 2200 ohm resistor turn off the security system light? I only ask since it takes so long.
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
It should after relearned, yes.
but we need the start signal or at least the key to turn there to trigger the relearn
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I appears that the key cylinder is not rotating the switch far enough to go to the start position to engage the started motor. how do I remove the key cylinder?
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
So if you turn the switch itself with a screwdriver, you will get to the start position?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Yes, the car starts the dies and the theft system light blinks 7 times
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
OK, so this is one thing I did ask, if you could turn the key fully to crank and if you could turn the switch when we were talking about jumping it.
So now that we have an idea, the cylinder needs to be changed. The pain will be getting it out. The key must rotate to start so the release is exposed. CAn you try tapping on the key end or using a newly cut key and try to get it to start so you can insert a tool to release it?
IT is the small hole on the housing .
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Where is the small hole? There are al least 4 holes under the steering column
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
with the key in run, press #2.
graphic
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I figured it out! The ignition cylinder stopped 5 degrees before final rotation. I totally took it apart and WD-40ed it a whole lot until it moved to the final stop.

For your reference:
If you use a screwdriver to rotate the ignition switch, the key must be rotated at the same time to keep the theft system from engaging, otherwise the theft system light will blink seven times
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Yes that I knew, but even so it would have engaged the starter and it would not have started but cranked and that is what I was looking for.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
NO, removing the switch from the column and using a screw driver to rotate it made the engine start and then cut out. THIS WORKED FOR BOTH THE OLD & NEW SWITCH
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
Ok, then we got mixed up, I Asked you.
Info Request
1/10/2012 at 5:45 PM (1 minute and 28 seconds later)
What happens if you turn the switch manually?



and you replied

Reply
1/10/2012 at 5:46 PM (1 minute and 1 second later)
Nothing


This is where we went off track. I took that to mean the switch did nothign when you turned it manually.
If you had answered that it cranked, started then stalled I would have sent you to the cylinder.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I did tell you that at 1:20 pm today

You said:
So if you turn the switch itself with a screwdriver, you will get to the start position?

I said:
Yes, the car starts then dies and the theft system light blinks 7 times
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
yes, understood, and at that time we went to the issue which is the cylinder not rotating enough to properly move the switch and at the same time not engage the passlock sensor.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Fine. I'm done, the car works, you did help in some respects. Thanks
Expert:  GM Tech (Cam) replied 2 years ago.
I am simply trying to figure out where things went sideways. BotXXXXX XXXXXne is you got it fixed.
I would still consider replacing the cylinder as it may fail again.
Please reply back if you need additional help or press ACCEPT If my answer was helpful. You can reopen it at any time by replying to it and I will answer ASAP. PLease keep in mind that as experts on this site, we are only compensated for our time spent helping customers once ACCEPT is selected. Be sure to bookmark this page (CTRL D) to reply with results or ask more if you need. Thanks again for using Just Answer. Cam.
GM Tech (Cam), Pontiac Technician
Category: Pontiac
Satisfied Customers: 27666
Experience: GM Grand Master Technician 2007. 11 years experience.
GM Tech (Cam) and 8 other Pontiac Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I know that it is difficult trouble shooting like this. Thanks

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GM Tech (Cam)
GM Tech (Cam)
Pontiac Mechanic
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GM Grand Master Technician 2007. 11 years experience.